Why choose a CT4 BW over a new BMW M3? Sincerely asking.

[ukcats12]

I had no idea anyone would buy their first manual in today's environment. I assumed 100% of today's 3-pedal buyers did so purely out of nostalgia since we are literally a dying breed. You guys have my utmost admiration and respect.

As a younger guy who learned manual less than ten years ago, the asshole car snob in me does always get a little enjoyment out of surprising people who see the car is manual. I always find it funny when I pull up to the valet and they need to go get their boss to park it because they can't drive a stick.

 

[ukcats12]

My CT5BW is my first manual. I was worried a bit initially but driving it hasn’t been bad. Also SM helped me see how much the car can be pushed that I won’t be accidentally burning out or spinning the car if I shifted it wrong.

It's a good thing you started with a relatively tame car. You wouldn't want to start out with anything too powerful

 

[Deneed4spd]

It's a good thing you started with a relatively tame car. You wouldn't want to start out with anything too powerful

Under 2k it’s as tame as a civic ha!

 

[Dirkbg]

It's a little learning curve getting into a different MT car. I had been driving my '09 GLI before the BW, but the BW had a much different clutch feel. It takes a little time to get smooth. It was even a little odd for the several months I had both to adjust to each.

I taught my wife to drive MT on a 1979 Trans Am 400 (4 sp). It's easier I think with an engine with lots of torque. She accidentally started off in 3rd several times and didn't stall. I learned on a 1969 Camaro 327 w/3sp on the column. I had a 1/4 mile driveway so got lots of practice before heading onto the streets. Eventually changed it to a floor shift. Column shifter MT stinks. Parking brake didn't work, so I left it in gear and placed a rock under the front or rear tire, depending on the slope. When I left, I'd leave the door open, back up or go forward and pull the rock out and toss it on the floor and go.

 

[bloominguez]

For the record, I am a GM V8 with a stickshift guy since the 1990s.
Love my stick shift SS Sedan daily driver and Corvettes, and am shopping for a CT5 BW with a stick.

With that said, with everything we all know about the new BMW M3 in the Summer of 2023, why would anyone choose a CT4 BW over the M3?
If you own a CT4 BW, why did you choose it over the M3?

I'm sincerely asking, and hope we all can have a polite and intelligent discussion in here.

In my case I had already hit my lifetime quota of BMW ownership. Had one. That was enough. Completely uninterested in ever buying another.

Had a 2009 335i M-sport package 2-dr MT, modified with all the usual engine stuff up to about 450 hp, plus LSD. Fantastic car to drive, lots of power, great ergonomics. I had it for maybe 5 years. I wanted to love it, was perfect on paper ... but I didn't.

Shifter was not a strong point, below average for that type of car. Not engaging. Not as good as any of the multiple Japanese cars I've driven over many decades. Nowhere even remotely in the same universe as the Tremecs in our BWs. I haven't driven a BMW manual lately, but I read they're still kind of mushy. Wouldn't be a complete deal breaker if I liked the car for other reasons but still a strike against.

Main issue was the reliability. Stuff just broke, often little things, for no reason. "Halo" bulb burned out at 20,000 miles or so. Multiple rear brake lights burned out before 40,000 miles (shop said that they see that on the 2-doors, not on the 4-doors, not sure why). Plastic charge pipe just broke driving down the road, before 40,000 miles. Hit an expansion joint on the highway, felt like the whole dash lit up, broke a rear brake sensor and the car really didn't like that.

Looking at the new BMWs, I'm not a fan. I LOVED the BMW interiors back in the day. Simple, classic gauge cluster, extraordinarily clear. Yes, I like the orange color, so perfect at night. Loved all the controls as well. I found the way BMW did the cruise control, the turn signals, etc. was extremely functional once you got used to it. Now that that stuff is gone (last time I checked), I find the BMW gauges and controls to be subpar. Hard to drive a new BMW without thinking that they've taken a step backwards, they're just copying what others do, they're not leading in any way, they're not honoring their heritage (which they should, because it's good!).

I was a bit skeptical about the Cadillac gauges for this reason, knowing they are all digital, but I think Cadillac has actually done a really good job. Lots of restraint shown by GM to NOT get too fancy, offering some really good display options. I have the MyMode display set to "sport" which is perfect for what I want in the dash.

 

[bloominguez]

As a younger guy who learned manual less than ten years ago, the asshole car snob in me does always get a little enjoyment out of surprising people who see the car is manual. I always find it funny when I pull up to the valet and they need to go get their boss to park it because they can't drive a stick.

You're a better man than I am. I'd find somewhere else to park. I avoid valets nowadays for this reason.

In a related note: I once picked up my BMW (when I still owned it) from the dealer after some maintenance or warranty work. After waiting longer than expected for them to bring the car around, as they said they would, some kid comes up to me and says, "I'm sorry, would you mind walking out to your car? I didn't realize it was a manual." 1) Actually, I didn't mind. Happy to walk to the car, so that this kid doesn't drive my car. 2) What kind of "ultimate driving machine" dealership employs people who don't know how to drive their cars?

 

[ukcats12]

You're a better man than I am. I'd find somewhere else to park. I avoid valets nowadays for this reason.

I avoid them when I can but sometimes there's just no choice. Any hotel in a city like NYC or Philly is going to be valet only and any it's pretty hard to find any sort of self parking option. I'd rather take my chance on a valet than a shady self park garage a mile from the hotel.

 

[Head Hunter]

Been about 6 years since my last manual (800whp T/A WS6) but prior to that have been driving manual since I was 15 and my first car was a 300zxTT. The Tremec/Clutch combo in my 5BW is maybe the smoothest, best shifting manual I have ever driven. Truly impressed.

 

[strohw]

There is a high probability that I'll still own a G80. There are practically no choices for manuals in this price segment. When I get rid of my car I'm going to want something different. So unless I decide not to get a manual then it's BMW.

 

[windman11]

I have a 4bw and driven a new m3 for about 5-10 hours (both cars manual), so I feel like I have something to add.

4bw pros:
1. Feels smaller and more nimble to drive
2. Shifter feels much more notchy, precise, and shorter throw. Can't stress how much of a difference this makes. The m3 felt like i never knew where i was with the gear shifter
3. I personally like the engine sound more, though this is preference
4. Seats hold you more, though this will depend on how big of a person you are. I am comparing normal m3 seats btw.

M3 pros:
1. More powerful car. I could feel the increased pull on the highway. Though around town, grip was the limitation anyway
2. Slightly better highway cruiser. So like how the 4bw is more nimble etc, this handles like a bigger car on the highway.
3. Interior is nicer. It has better materials generally and much nicer screens. Apple carplay is great in the m3.

 

[G.Newt]

1. Looks. Can't do the G80 grill. And the 4BW with CF1/2 is really sporty but also classy looking.
2. Inputs: steering, brakes, steering, and manual are all better. The ZF 6-speed in my 340i was awful. And the M3 isn't much better. The Tremec is a different class. Also hated numb BMW steering, and the overly harsh ride in M models.
3. Suspension. The ride and handling balance is superb. My E90 daily has that old BMW magic ALL THE TIME, anything F chassis or newer lost it unless you're pushing it hard.
4. Rarity. BMW will sell 30-40k G80's, Cadillac may sell 5k. Wanted something different.
5. Bulletproof LF4.

 

[TTc8HTC]

Seems like the M3 Comp Automatic+AWD is the only BMW to buy.
And at that price, I'd rather stretch to the CT5 BW M6.

I appreciate hearing what other people have to say, and how they assessed these cars.

 

[white98ls]

In my case I had already hit my lifetime quota of BMW ownership. Had one. That was enough. Completely uninterested in ever buying another.

Had a 2009 335i M-sport package 2-dr MT, modified with all the usual engine stuff up to about 450 hp, plus LSD. Fantastic car to drive, lots of power, great ergonomics. I had it for maybe 5 years. I wanted to love it, was perfect on paper ... but I didn't.

Shifter was not a strong point, below average for that type of car. Not engaging. Not as good as any of the multiple Japanese cars I've driven over many decades. Nowhere even remotely in the same universe as the Tremecs in our BWs. I haven't driven a BMW manual lately, but I read they're still kind of mushy. Wouldn't be a complete deal breaker if I liked the car for other reasons but still a strike against.

Main issue was the reliability. Stuff just broke, often little things, for no reason. "Halo" bulb burned out at 20,000 miles or so. Multiple rear brake lights burned out before 40,000 miles (shop said that they see that on the 2-doors, not on the 4-doors, not sure why). Plastic charge pipe just broke driving down the road, before 40,000 miles. Hit an expansion joint on the highway, felt like the whole dash lit up, broke a rear brake sensor and the car really didn't like that.

Looking at the new BMWs, I'm not a fan. I LOVED the BMW interiors back in the day. Simple, classic gauge cluster, extraordinarily clear. Yes, I like the orange color, so perfect at night. Loved all the controls as well. I found the way BMW did the cruise control, the turn signals, etc. was extremely functional once you got used to it. Now that that stuff is gone (last time I checked), I find the BMW gauges and controls to be subpar. Hard to drive a new BMW without thinking that they've taken a step backwards, they're just copying what others do, they're not leading in any way, they're not honoring their heritage (which they should, because it's good!).

I was a bit skeptical about the Cadillac gauges for this reason, knowing they are all digital, but I think Cadillac has actually done a really good job. Lots of restraint shown by GM to NOT get too fancy, offering some really good display options. I have the MyMode display set to "sport" which is perfect for what I want in the dash.

Couldn't agree more with this whole post. Owned an E39 M5 and E90 M3 manual. The Blackwings are more modern, more reliable, and better versions of those.

 

[TRTL PWR]

coming from an M2 here...The tremec transmission is so much better. if you are not talking manuals then i'd go with the m3. i considered the m3 for power and refinement but ultimately the transmission and the driver engagement in the blackwing won me over.

 

[PL69]

I, too, test drove an M3 before buying the 4BW. As a driver's car the 4BW is more engaging. The M3 felt very numb and boring (even the 6MT). On paper it's better, but when you get in and drive you feel the difference.

BTW I have never owned a Cadillac/GM product nor a BMW before buying the 4BW.

I own and track drive a 2023 6MT M3, it's a hell of a car and an impressive engine but it's got no feel, I am running 295 square tires, stiffer monoballs on the trust arms. You are really guessing in your head whats happening with the tires, you feel the suspension working in your butt (bucket seats) but like someone said about the shifter wich he found to totally change the experience I think the steering feel is even more important.

I didn't test drive a 4BW yet but test drove an SS 1LE and I found the chassis and steering communicated well what was happening, I felt great confidence albeit only trying it on the street. I have experience driving a GT4 on track and it the 4BW gives me half of the same kind of feedback I'll happily switch from the G80.

 

[cnofar]

For the record, I am a GM V8 with a stickshift guy since the 1990s.
Love my stick shift SS Sedan daily driver and Corvettes, and am shopping for a CT5 BW with a stick.

With that said, with everything we all know about the new BMW M3 in the Summer of 2023, why would anyone choose a CT4 BW over the M3?
If you own a CT4 BW, why did you choose it over the M3?

I'm sincerely asking, and hope we all can have a polite and intelligent discussion in here.

Long time BMW M3 owner (E46, E90, F80). I had every intention of buying a G80 M3 (deposit for Isle of Man green on orange interior with 6 speed) despite the front end. I cross shopped the Cadillac and BMW for months; put deposits at multiple dealerships for both. Ultimately I found the G80 to be too costly, too long of a delay to get, and the styling over wrought (too many electronics, touch screens, too complicated...that damn front end, etc). It was getting away from what I thought a fun driver's car should be and just too technical.

I bought my CT4 BW unseen/undriven after watching numerous videos, reading magazine articles etc. I'm so happy I changed to the Cadillac. It's been a stunning car to drive, easy to live with, fast, comfortable, and I get WAY more attention/looks/thumbs up/questions at gas stations than I ever did in my M3's. Plus maintenance costs (oil changes etc) are much cheaper for the Cadillac. Size wise it's very comparable to my F80 and E90 M3's for size and back seat usability for my two kids. The Caddy has been a great family car and turns heads everywhere we go, especially in Electric Blue.

Cheers,
Christopher

 

[mfcentex]

I'm currently in the M3 vs CT4 BW debate. I currently have a 350z 6MT. I love how nimble the car feels when turning/changing lanes/etc. I initially shopped a C8, but I have kids and wife wants a 4 door car. I want more power. Interior quality isn't a big concern, since either car is an upgrade.

For the M3, I can order a 2024 (on the 2025 waitlist). I was able to test drive a 2022 M3 xdrive comp. The drivetrain was amazing on the highway. The steering was numbing. It felt like a bigger car. My current car has hydraulic PS and I noticed the huge difference after the test drive. I have concerns about future repair costs on a BMW.

For the CT4 BW test drive, I wasn't able to push it. It was a new car and couldn't go over 4500 RPMs. I have no clue on the power of the engine. This was an A10. I'm 50/50 on A10 or 6MT. I drive a 6MT now, but the wife can't drive it. I like the cost of the CT4 BW and potential cheaper repairs.

These are more of my opinions, but I'm looking for something to push me in the direction of one of these cars.

 

[seattlecubes]

I'm currently in the M3 vs CT4 BW debate. I currently have a 350z 6MT. I love how nimble the car feels when turning/changing lanes/etc. I initially shopped a C8, but I have kids and wife wants a 4 door car. I want more power. Interior quality isn't a big concern, since either car is an upgrade.

For the M3, I can order a 2024 (on the 2025 waitlist). I was able to test drive a 2022 M3 xdrive comp. The drivetrain was amazing on the highway. The steering was numbing. It felt like a bigger car. My current car has hydraulic PS and I noticed the huge difference after the test drive. I have concerns about future repair costs on a BMW.

For the CT4 BW test drive, I wasn't able to push it. It was a new car and couldn't go over 4500 RPMs. I have no clue on the power of the engine. This was an A10. I'm 50/50 on A10 or 6MT. I drive a 6MT now, but the wife can't drive it. I like the cost of the CT4 BW and potential cheaper repairs.

These are more of my opinions, but I'm looking for something to push me in the direction of one of these cars.

Depends on how long you plan to keep the car or how big your family is, but the back seat of the CT4 is snug.

The CT5 is more of an equivalent competitor to the M3 on price and size. The CT4 is more of an M2 competitor.

I drove an M3 before deciding on my Ct4 and the steering, gearbox and ride is better on the CT4 for me. I tend to keep cars a long time so the maintenance costs appealed to me as well. The M3 engine sings and the rear seat space is gigantic compared to the CT4. I’ve been very careful to not mention the looks of the M3 - internally or externally - which is an acquired taste…but they did have an impact on my purchase as well.

Hope this helps

 

[eddyjoe]

The gearbox is a significant difference. The Tremec is vastly superior to the BMW if you desire a manual. I vetoed the M3 for this reason—oh, yeah, and maintenance costs.

 

[mfcentex]

Depends on how long you plan to keep the car or how big your family is, but the back seat of the CT4 is snug.

The CT5 is more of an equivalent competitor to the M3 on price and size. The CT4 is more of an M2 competitor.

I drove an M3 before deciding on my Ct4 and the steering, gearbox and ride is better on the CT4 for me. I tend to keep cars a long time so the maintenance costs appealed to me as well. The M3 engine sings and the rear seat space is gigantic compared to the CT4. I’ve been very careful to not mention the looks of the M3 - internally or externally - which is an acquired taste…but they did have an impact on my purchase as well.

Hope this helps

That's a future concern, but we have three vehicles now (SUV, Truck, 350Z). I've kept the Z for so long, since it hasn't been practical to buy another 2 seat car.

I've looked at the M2 as well. I don't want to go to the CT5.

I done all my own work on the my Z, so easy repairs would be nice. It maybe a notion in my head, but American and Japanese cars seem easier to work. That being said, these are the only cars I've owned.