What made you choose a Blackwing and what else did you consider?

[techdude99]

I'm re posting this just for clarification

"I got banned from ever test driving cars at my local Mazda dealership after I took an RX8 out with a salesman in the passenger seat. He kept telling me to slow down...and I told him I'm buying a car to do the kind of things I want to do in it and I have to see if it can. He was screaming at me after we got out of the car. BTW both my boys were in the backseat (loving it)...car handled great BTW...but could have been a bit quicker..."

Disclaimer: Never did this involve any super high speeds...it all was on extremely tight curvy portions of road in a wooded area....no animals were harmed...and it was nothing unsafe or beyond any capabilities - mine or the cars...nor did it exceed anything I might normally do in one of my own cars. Admittedly, I have a few friends that refuse to ever get in a car with me (with me driving). But my boys love to ride with me even to this day. End of statement.

I was banned from a local Subaru store when I was in my 20's because I didn't buy the WRX I test drove in the rain. Never exceeded the capability of the car and I thought it was a mostly sedate drive but I was told the sales guy was traumatized. I guess it's all a matter of perspective

 

[Jim2000]

I'm re posting this just for clarification

"I got banned from ever test driving cars at my local Mazda dealership after I took an RX8 out with a salesman in the passenger seat. He kept telling me to slow down...and I told him I'm buying a car to do the kind of things I want to do in it and I have to see if it can. He was screaming at me after we got out of the car. BTW both my boys were in the backseat (loving it)...car handled great BTW...but could have been a bit quicker..."

Disclaimer: Never did this involve any super high speeds...it all was on extremely tight curvy portions of road in a wooded area....no animals were harmed...and it was nothing unsafe or beyond any capabilities - mine or the cars...nor did it exceed anything I might normally do in one of my own cars. Admittedly, I have a few friends that refuse to ever get in a car with me (with me driving). But my boys love to ride with me even to this day. End of statement.

Now that is a funny story. This reminds me of the commercial with the race car driver who goes on a test drive with the salesman. I thought the salesman was going to soil his pants.

 

[565565]

Now that is a funny story. This reminds me of the commercial with the race car driver who goes on a test drive with the salesman. I thought the salesman was going to soil his pants.

All this discussion reminds me of this classic video.

 

[Clubracer6]

Nice write up BimmerFan - enjoy your C6.

E39 M5 was phenomenal for the time (and still respectable to this day)...but a bit on the expensive side. I was aware of it and the very nice 540i but never considered it - both due to price and my preference for a somewhat smaller, sporty, more nimble car.

Once I drove the 330 ZHP I knew it was the car for us. Didi a European delivery, drove 1200 miles in 3 weeks through Germany, Austria and France, dropped it off at Charles Du Gaul and 3 weeks later did another pickup at a local BMW dealer. Everything was great....on;y I got a very weird case of strep real bad that kept me from driving the Nuerbergring. E39 M5 would have been a blast on that trip and to own as well.

Roadhawk, how does you CT4V Blackwing compare to the ZHP. I have over 70 cars, including 25 or so BMW’s, a bunch of Porsche’s, Miata’s and Corvette’s and my ZHP I had back in 04 was one of top two favorites. Considering getting another and a daily of just getting a BW4 manual. I run a business and have 3 kids so I don’t have time to really deal with the issues of an older car.

 

[Roadhawk]

The CT4V certainly has more punch, has a nicer interior, more amenities, better brakes (though brakes are a ZHP strength) and is a more refined, more modern feeling car. Though they are almost the same size, the ZHP feels smaller and more nimble....its pretty raw feeling (in a good way) and it feels just so perfect and balanced.

Its a tough call. I really like the zippiness of the ZHP and love accelerating with redline shifts. BW is just so good though and in the end its certainly the better all around car. But my preference is for a smaller. more nimble car and while the BW handles great and is great all around - and in the end faster - don't know if it will quite do it for me the same way as the ZHP does. Still, haven't had enough time with it yet and it really shines going all out. So jury is still out.

 

[Roadhawk]

All this discussion reminds me of this classic video.

LOL my salesmen was screaming more in the car and after and was very upset. I was telling him to chill and that I wasn't doing anything I don't do in my own cars etc (and my boys were both in the back seat...egging me on and laughing at the terrified sales guy). Then he said i was banned and never to come back....lol

 

[99sport]

I run a business and have 3 kids so I don’t have time to really deal with the issues of an older car.

An E46 BMW is NOT for you. I love old cars - currently have 8 cars 25 years or older. My E46, that I sold a year or two ago with 120k on the clock, is by FAR the worst car I have ever owned - and I currently have 3 cars that are approaching 400k miles.

Mine was not a ZHP, and it had all season tires, but the handling was a disappointment. It was great on open roads like PCH, but when I took it to my favorite twisty road in Malibu I actually turned around and went home - it just wasn't up to the really tight stuff. Might not be an issue for you in Chicago, as I suspect you don't have the same kind of tight, bumpy, off camber roads that really test a suspension. My 5BW, which weighs probably 1000 lbs more than an E46, however, absolutely devours that same road, plus even tighter ones (the 5 is up there with my Miata or S2000 in the twisties).

I did enjoy driving the car, and the size was perfect, the interior very nice (it was very quiet and comfortable), the straight 6 was a real gem and the shifter was very good.

But the maintenance - I'm not even sure where to start. The cooling system is all plastic and requires an extensive (and expensive) replacement at least every ten years - or it leaks and the engine overheats and is destroyed. Same with the myriad of suspension bushings. If you don't preemptively replace them you get metal on metal contact and a cracked frame. The window regulators are a joke - my car had at least 7 replacements - keep a 2x4 in the trunk so you can jam it inside the door when you get somewhere and cant close the window (all 4 are unique, so you'd need to keep 4 spares in the trunk otherwise). The electronics box in the glove box failed (no central locking and other functions), the instrument cluster went completely dead (you need a BMW electronics guy on speed dial - mine said a bad zeener diode killed the IC). The car flooded from the sunroof every time it rained. The driver's door handle broke so I had to climb in from the back seat. The accessory stalk broke. Plus there's probably a bunch more failures I cant remember. Literally every time I got in it I wondered what would brake. In decades and hundreds of thousands of miles of owning a half dozen golden era hondas of similar vintage, most with far higer mileage, I had to replace 2 relays and 2 clutch master cylinders. Oh, and back 15 years ago when folks were autocrossing these, every single one I saw at an autocross had an engine knock at the end of the run - they starve for oil under sustained cornering.

The CT4-BW is better than an E46 better in every way - except for the engine. The straight 6 in the BMW was absolutely the highlight of the car. Be sure you get the name of a BMW electronics tech before you buy. The (lack) of reliability of that era of BMW really is mind boggling. Read any BMW forum and you'll find the list of items that regularly fail (some listed above) and how many thousands of dollars per year you need to budget to keep them on the road. If you only dirve it a few times a year (which is likely with 75 cars) you'll be reparing it more frequently than you drive it.

 

[Jim2000]

BMWs are a repair nightmare. BMW made some wonderful cars years ago that had great steering and handling. Now you can steer them with your pinkie and you don't know what the front wheels are doing. BMW does not make the ultimate driving machine. The Blackwing is the ultimate driving machine as my rear license plate holder says.

 

[Roadhawk]

I've had to replace cooling system parts, bushings and a control arm or two, leaky gaskets (mostly regular maintenance stuff for an older car IMO...and one window regulator....thats it in 20 years (of hard driving by me and soft driving by my wife)....I consider our e46 a very reliable car (particularly compared to our Audi).

The ZHP is night and day better performing car then the standard 3 series of the day. Handles much better....not even close. When I test drove both back when I decided to get the ZHP it was a clear choice - the mushiness and body roll in the normal 3 were a non starter for me. And the shifter is much better on the ZHP as well and the engine is tuned better. It was a very tight great handling car in its day and it still holds up well - a pleasure to drive.

75 cars...wow! My old shop had a contract to maintain (trickle charge mostly) a warehouse of a hundred plus cars owned by the Crown Prince of Bahrain. What an amazing collection of great and unusual cars....even a 2 story tall monster truck. Whenever he would come to the states he would order them to ship a few of them to wherever he was going to be. I often got to visit the warehouse and sit in some of the cars - in the same building as my shop....I think he co-owned the building with a DuPont Heir who kept his 65 Ferrari's in another building in the back...which I didn't get to visit - though he kept a Lemans winner on display as well as a Lambo Contach prototype and a few other notable cars in another shop there (his). They held an annual Ferrari meet one year there and I volunteered to help park cars...which was pretty cool. I miss my old shop (not currently in business)

 

[Roadhawk]

I currently have 3 cars that are approaching 400k miles.

Impressive. Tell us more...(about all the older cars you own)

 

[Clubracer6]

Wow @99sport, first time I’ve ever heard so much negative about the ZHP, but I totally get it and agree. Getting another ZHP is not on top of my list, but just wondering if the BW4 was close dynamically. I have been trying to replace that feel since I traded my ZHP in in 2006. @Roadhawk thanks for the feedback, you kind of do make me want to get another, but agree with others, they can take some care and feeding. FTR I am shopping for my 75th car, but currently just have one. A 2011 F150 Raptor! An odd experiment for me that I am enjoying far more than I thought.

Anyone consider the IS500? A little bigger back seat and slightly cheaper. Maybe one of those and a cheap Miata for my manual needs.

 

[quikag]

Wow @99sport, first time I’ve ever heard so much negative about the ZHP, but I totally get it and agree. Getting another ZHP is not on top of my list, but just wondering if the BW4 was close dynamically. I have been trying to replace that feel since I traded my ZHP in in 2006. @Roadhawk thanks for the feedback, you kind of do make me want to get another, but agree with others, they can take some care and feeding. FTR I am shopping for my 75th car, but currently just have one. A 2011 F150 Raptor! An odd experiment for me that I am enjoying far more than I thought.

Anyone consider the IS500? A little bigger back seat and slightly cheaper. Maybe one of those and a cheap Miata for my manual needs.

I love the IS500 engine, but the rest of the car is archaic including the interior. Also, no engine oil cooler at all is a strong indication this is an around town cruiser and that's it. You track it or drive it aggressively for more than a few minutes and the car won't hold up. But, if you just want to cruise around town and rev it up occasionally, it's a sweet little car and should last forever.

All that said, it's not comparable at all to the 4BW as far as overall dynamic performance package.

 

[Roadhawk]

Wow @99sport, first time I’ve ever heard so much negative about the ZHP, but I totally get it and agree. Getting another ZHP is not on top of my list, but just wondering if the BW4 was close dynamically. I have been trying to replace that feel since I traded my ZHP in in 2006. @Roadhawk thanks for the feedback, you kind of do make me want to get another, but agree with others, they can take some care and feeding. FTR I am shopping for my 75th car, but currently just have one. A 2011 F150 Raptor! An odd experiment for me that I am enjoying far more than I thought.

Anyone consider the IS500? A little bigger back seat and slightly cheaper. Maybe one of those and a cheap Miata for my manual needs.

I think 99sport was referring to the 3 series in general. Based on our experience of our ZHP being very reliable I've always kind of felt that BMW Individual took more care in selecting and paying attention to the car before it went out the door. Don't know really.Of course no accounting for all the (over time) brittle plastics BMW (and Audi) use or have used for important stuff and other common failure points.

4 BW certainly has some of the characteristics of the ZHP - sharp handling, great (even better than ZHP) MT and fun to drive characteristics. But being a fan of smaller nimbler cars its just a bit on the porky side for me. It certainly hides it well...but when I get in the ZHP it feels immediately lighter and more easily tossable. Its just easier - more simple and straightforward....making it more likely to just take out on errands or local stuff...where the BW is clearly the better long drive cruiser and such.

To be honest though - of all our current daily drivers I actually still enjoy the GTI the best (even with accursed FWD). It handles great, is small(er) and (more) nimble than even the ZHP and its just a little monster - shove in the back acceleration...even more so than the 4 BW. Its also why I preferred our (heavily modded) Audi S4 over the entirely stock ZHP....most of the time.

Still I think I'll come around to the BW once I drive it more. Its really a fantastic car and in many ways quality and whole package wise the best car we've ever owned.You should try to drive one and see for yourself. I think you'll be pleased and impressed.

 

[565565]

Roadhawk, how does you CT4V Blackwing compare to the ZHP. I have over 70 cars, including 25 or so BMW’s, a bunch of Porsche’s, Miata’s and Corvette’s and my ZHP I had back in 04 was one of top two favorites. Considering getting another and a daily of just getting a BW4 manual. I run a business and have 3 kids so I don’t have time to really deal with the issues of an older car.

Wait you currently have over 70 cars??

Or you had 70 cars over your lifetime?

 

[Jim2000]

Wow @99sport, first time I’ve ever heard so much negative about the ZHP, but I totally get it and agree. Getting another ZHP is not on top of my list, but just wondering if the BW4 was close dynamically. I have been trying to replace that feel since I traded my ZHP in in 2006. @Roadhawk thanks for the feedback, you kind of do make me want to get another, but agree with others, they can take some care and feeding. FTR I am shopping for my 75th car, but currently just have one. A 2011 F150 Raptor! An odd experiment for me that I am enjoying far more than I thought.

Anyone consider the IS500? A little bigger back seat and slightly cheaper. Maybe one of those and a cheap Miata for my manual needs.

IS500 is not a sports car. It isn't extremely fast. It has poor steering and the handling is like eating vanilla ice cream. It's good, but not great.

 

[dizz81]

IS500 is not a sports car. It isn't extremely fast. It has poor steering and the handling is like eating vanilla ice cream. It's good, but not great.

Yeah I would definitely consider it a luxury cruiser with a great sounding engine. I have a 350 Fsport that I DD and it's just a super nice driving car. Smooth as hell, super quiet cabin, great induction noise, handles curves superbly and looks sexy (I think).

 

[Jim2000]

Yeah I would definitely consider it a luxury cruiser with a great sounding engine. I have a 350 Fsport that I DD and it's just a super nice driving car. Smooth as hell, super quiet cabin, great induction noise, handles curves superbly and looks sexy (I think).

Handles curves superbly? Have you driven a Blackwing, M3, S4, or true AMG car? The steering on every Lexus, including the GSF, is very weak and disconnected. I will agree that I like the looks of the 350 and the reliability is awesome. Toyota makes a great product, but they don't make sports cars.

 

[dizz81]

Handles curves superbly? Have you driven a Blackwing, M3, S4, or true AMG car? The steering on every Lexus, including the GSF, is very weak and disconnected. I will agree that I like the looks of the 350 and the reliability is awesome. Toyota makes a great product, but they don't make sports cars.

Haven't driven a Blackwing but I have owned an E92 and F80 M3/M4, and also an S5 (but you specifically said S4 so no on that one). I never said the steering feel was amazing. I said the car handled curves superbly. Try reading what I actually said vice what you think I said.

Just to appease you on steering feel, the E92 was the best "feeling" of all the sports cars I've owned. The F80 didn't provide anywhere near the steering feel and it was one of things I disliked about the car. Then again it's difficult to provide the same type of feedback you get from hydraulic vs electric.

Also, are you really trying to say Toyota doesn't make sports cars? You SURE you want to actually say that? I'm just curious what you consider to be a sports car.

 

[Jim2000]

There is no reason to be rude. You comment "Try reading what I actually said vice what you think I said" is rude. I did read what you said and added my thoughts about the steering.

 

[quikag]

Haven't driven a Blackwing but I have owned an E92 and F80 M3/M4, and also an S5 (but you specifically said S4 so no on that one). I never said the steering feel was amazing. I said the car handled curves superbly. Try reading what I actually said vice what you think I said.

Just to appease you on steering feel, the E92 was the best "feeling" of all the sports cars I've owned. The F80 didn't provide anywhere near the steering feel and it was one of things I disliked about the car. Then again it's difficult to provide the same type of feedback you get from hydraulic vs electric.

Also, are you really trying to say Toyota doesn't make sports cars? You SURE you want to actually say that? I'm just curious what you consider to be a sports car.

The only sports car Toyota currently makes is a Toyota Corolla GR which I owned and even that is a bit of a stretch as it's AWD, but it does have some cool motorsport bits (the 3 cylinder turbo is an awesome engine). The Supra is mostly BMW, the BRZ/86 is mostly Subaru (I have one of those too, a '22 BRZ Limited manual).

The last Toyota sports car is the LFA and Supra. LC500 is not exactly a sports car, but it's a pretty cool GT.