What made you choose a Blackwing and what else did you consider?

[Jim2000]

The only sports car Toyota currently makes is a Toyota Corolla GR which I owned and even that is a bit of a stretch as it's AWD, but it does have some cool motorsport bits (the 3 cylinder turbo is an awesome engine). The Supra is mostly BMW, the BRZ/86 is mostly Subaru (I have one of those too, a '22 BRZ Limited manual).

The last Toyota sports car is the LFA and Supra. LC500 is not exactly a sports car, but it's a pretty cool GT.

Isn't the suspension of the Supra made by BMW or it has a lot of BMW parts?

 

[quikag]

Isn't the suspension of the Supra made by BMW or it has a lot of BMW parts?

90% of the Supra is BMW. Suspension, chassis, engine, ZF transmission, etc.

 

[Jim2000]

90% of the Supra is BMW. Suspension, chassis, engine, ZF transmission, etc.

The Supra is a great looking car, but is so small inside. You have to be careful not to bump your head as you enter.

 

[Roadhawk]

Back in the day my supercharged MR2 was pure sports car. The Supras from the early 90s certainly were...a friends modified Supra (700-800? hp) was the fastest car I've ever driven and handled very well too.

I know some of those Lexuses (like the LFA) had legit sports car chops and the new (BMW) Supra sure does...and their Corrolla GR hot hatch could certainly be called one in some senses of the word...but in general Toyota does seem to have more or less abandoned producing actual sports cars. I'm anxiously awaiting the new MR2 though....hopefully they get it right.

 

[techdude99]

The GR Corolla is a really fun car to drive. If I lived somewhere with better roads and could get over the cheap interior I would own one.

The MR2 supercharged and especially the turbo's were fun cars but talk about snap oversteer....almost killed myself before I learned how to handle mid-engine RWD lol

 

[Roadhawk]

The GR Corolla is a really fun car to drive. If I lived somewhere with better roads and could get over the cheap interior I would own one.

The MR2 supercharged and especially the turbo's were fun cars but talk about snap oversteer....almost killed myself before I learned how to handle mid-engine RWD lol

Don't know if i ever experienced snap oversteer per se...but I had one pretty frightening spin out in my MR2. It was wet with some snow (not in the road but cold) - the right near 90 deg sharp corner was angled out a bit to the oncoming lane...I was going too fast for the conditions...and well I spun around two times but managed to keep the car completely in my lane and pointed the right way on the road as if nothing happened (have no idea how...and boy did it happen quickly)...and there was a big Mercedes coming toward me in the other lane whose driver (old guy) was both concerned and impressed (asked if I was OK and how the F did I do that).

 

[Roadhawk]

The Supra is a great looking car, but is so small inside. You have to be careful not to bump your head as you enter.

My ex brother in law had a first gen NSX. He let me drive it a few times (very nice)...I swear I bumped my head getting in every time.

We did a bunch of runs through some real back road twisties (he in the NSX and me in my MR2). I challenged him to try to lose me....he never could. NSX was much faster and could corner better too...and as long as it was a straight he could out power me and get ahead....but even though the NSX could corner better then my MR2...he couldn't...so i always reeled him in and pretty much stayed on his tail.

 

[rubberduck]

My ex brother in law had a first gen NSX. He let me drive it a few times (very nice)...I swear I bumped my head getting in every time.

We did a bunch of runs through some real back road twisties (he in the NSX and me in my MR2). I challenged him to try to lose me....he never could. NSX was much faster and could corner better too...and as long as it was a straight he could out power me and get ahead....but even though the NSX could corner better then my MR2...he couldn't...so i always reeled him in and pretty much stayed on his tail.

Funny you mention that. A few years back on a flat open stretch of Arizona highway I raced an NSX with my stage2 S4 going from 60 to around 140. Smoked him twice and left him dumbfounded.

 

[bloominguez]

The GR Corolla is a really fun car to drive. If I lived somewhere with better roads and could get over the cheap interior I would own one.

The MR2 supercharged and especially the turbo's were fun cars but talk about snap oversteer....almost killed myself before I learned how to handle mid-engine RWD lol

I just bought a GR Corolla (2024 "Premium"), and I think it's a fantastic car, just a blast to drive. Love how "real world fast" this car is. Not brutally powerful (especially after getting out of the 5BW), but quick enough to do anything I want to do on the road. Great handling. Puts a smile on my face. It's going to fill the role of daily driver for me.

Negatives: I really am starting to see what the reviewers are talking about when they criticize the interior. The seats are not good, just a strange shape without enough lumbar, front lip of the seat is too high when the seat is lowered, etc. Subpar for a car like this to say the least. And the rest of the interior is just bad. Crazy wide edges around the infotainment screen. Not even a little bit of storage for chapstick, sunglasses, etc. Steering wheel buttons that remind me of bad video game controllers from decades ago (Cadillac is a little better, but neither the Toyota or Cadillac are half as good as my Ford, if you can believe that). Heated steering wheel that doesn't really even get very warm (speaking of first world problems!). Toyota obviously put their efforts towards drivetrain, but they didn't bother trying, not even a little bit, on the interior. I'm sure I'll get used to it and won't have a huge problem long term, but the initial impressions are not that good. It is still a Corolla, I get it. But even a base Corolla should have this stuff better sorted, in my opinion.

I like that the car has adaptive cruise control, some cars with MTs (like my 5BW) don't have that. Works pretty well, I'll definitely use it on the highway. The lane centering is also way better than the Cadillac (I know other Cadillacs surely do it better, but my 5BW doesn't have the full suite of driver aids), if you like that sort of thing.

Oh, another negative: I've never had such a LOUD car. No, not the engine--all the alarms and beeps and complaints! Seatbelt alarm is obnoxious, had to buy a belt "extender" (just like with the Cadillac). I just want to unbuckle so it's easier to get the mail when I get home without going deaf. The dinging when I open the door to get out is incessant and ridiculous--yes, I know the door is open, I'm the one who opened it!! Parking sensors beeping endlessly when I tuck the car at the edge of the garage to maximize space. Will be looking through the manual to kill some of that stuff, if possible.

Dash display isn't nearly as good as the Cadillac, you don't get as many custom tiles, and Toyota feels the need to change your settings (will NOT let the tire pressure display come back when you restart the car, you need to add that every single time). The more I drive the Cadillac, the more I appreciate the dash displays GM implemented.

The car has different drive modes but they barely make any difference (unlike the Cadillac, where the character of the car can really change). Kind of a waste, not that it matters.

It's interesting switching between the Cadillac and the Toyota. The Cadillac can be so refined when you want it to be. It's so much smoother over the same roads, versus the Toyota. Bumps I don't even notice in the Cadillac are clear in the Toyota. The seating position is so much better in the Cadillac. And yet, I love driving both.

So, lots of negatives, but they are all secondary to the driving experience. I was also thinking about an Acura Integra Type S but, as good as it was, it felt too clinical. Great car as well, just not what I'm looking for.

I'll soon get to try my daughter's new GR 86. I'll have to compare the GR Corolla to the GR 86. No idea which one I'll like better.

 

[Roadhawk]

Funny you mention that. A few years back on a flat open stretch of Arizona highway I raced an NSX with my stage2 S4 going from 60 to around 140. Smoked him twice and left him dumbfounded.

Yeah....well even supercharged the MR2 was about a 6 sec 0-60 (with good hookup as engine was right over the rear wheels)....still it was fast for the day. Both my S4 and GTI would smoke that NSX easily.

I don't think he had it when we got the ZHP, but he did drive it once and commented how much he liked it and that it reminded him of his NSX in both quickness and WRT handling. Which was saying something from him as he always derided my cars with backhanded compliments - basically calling attention to the fact that his cars cost more and such, and mine, while nice, how could I be satisfied with such a pedestrian ride. etc

 

[cusewordsmith]

Caddy wasn't even on my original wish list. I was driving a 2002 WRX modded to about 350hp, but some teenager T-boned me a year ago and I had to get something ASAP. I was originally wanting a Golf R or Audi RS3 -- I am in Boston and drive to the icy mountains a lot -- but they were unobtainable. I thought I might try a Civic R, but the markups were crazy. I had read a lot about the Blackwings (and their predecessors) and thought they sounded great, but really wanted AWD. BUT... given the time constraints, and the fact I could get a 4VBW for under list, I took the plunge (but only after I sourced some snow tires). And it's been fine in the snow. No regrets!

(My other car is a 1987 Ferrari 328, so I am well acquainted with mid-engine RWD snap oversteer!)

Ted

 

[MookdocOE]

I just bought a GR Corolla (2024 "Premium"), and I think it's a fantastic car, just a blast to drive. Love how "real world fast" this car is. Not brutally powerful (especially after getting out of the 5BW), but quick enough to do anything I want to do on the road. Great handling. Puts a smile on my face. It's going to fill the role of daily driver for me.

Negatives: I really am starting to see what the reviewers are talking about when they criticize the interior. The seats are not good, just a strange shape without enough lumbar, front lip of the seat is too high when the seat is lowered, etc. Subpar for a car like this to say the least. And the rest of the interior is just bad. Crazy wide edges around the infotainment screen. Not even a little bit of storage for chapstick, sunglasses, etc. Steering wheel buttons that remind me of bad video game controllers from decades ago (Cadillac is a little better, but neither the Toyota or Cadillac are half as good as my Ford, if you can believe that). Heated steering wheel that doesn't really even get very warm (speaking of first world problems!). Toyota obviously put their efforts towards drivetrain, but they didn't bother trying, not even a little bit, on the interior. I'm sure I'll get used to it and won't have a huge problem long term, but the initial impressions are not that good. It is still a Corolla, I get it. But even a base Corolla should have this stuff better sorted, in my opinion.

I like that the car has adaptive cruise control, some cars with MTs (like my 5BW) don't have that. Works pretty well, I'll definitely use it on the highway. The lane centering is also way better than the Cadillac (I know other Cadillacs surely do it better, but my 5BW doesn't have the full suite of driver aids), if you like that sort of thing.

Oh, another negative: I've never had such a LOUD car. No, not the engine--all the alarms and beeps and complaints! Seatbelt alarm is obnoxious, had to buy a belt "extender" (just like with the Cadillac). I just want to unbuckle so it's easier to get the mail when I get home without going deaf. The dinging when I open the door to get out is incessant and ridiculous--yes, I know the door is open, I'm the one who opened it!! Parking sensors beeping endlessly when I tuck the car at the edge of the garage to maximize space. Will be looking through the manual to kill some of that stuff, if possible.

Dash display isn't nearly as good as the Cadillac, you don't get as many custom tiles, and Toyota feels the need to change your settings (will NOT let the tire pressure display come back when you restart the car, you need to add that every single time). The more I drive the Cadillac, the more I appreciate the dash displays GM implemented.

The car has different drive modes but they barely make any difference (unlike the Cadillac, where the character of the car can really change). Kind of a waste, not that it matters.

It's interesting switching between the Cadillac and the Toyota. The Cadillac can be so refined when you want it to be. It's so much smoother over the same roads, versus the Toyota. Bumps I don't even notice in the Cadillac are clear in the Toyota. The seating position is so much better in the Cadillac. And yet, I love driving both.

So, lots of negatives, but they are all secondary to the driving experience. I was also thinking about an Acura Integra Type S but, as good as it was, it felt too clinical. Great car as well, just not what I'm looking for.

I'll soon get to try my daughter's new GR 86. I'll have to compare the GR Corolla to the GR 86. No idea which one I'll like better.

That is a great write up vs the two vehicles. I was kinda digging the Corolla myself until I heard it was north of 50k?
my recent rental car Camry 4cly was my last encounter on how awful a car truly could be. The steering, power, the loudness and the THAT CAMRY DOOR CHIME AND SEATBELT! I understand what your screaming!

 

[albertw]

New member - first post.

I put a deposit on a CT4V Blackwing a couple months ago after reading numerous road tests and this forum, and finally getting a test drive. I'm willing to wait a year or more to get one, assuming production continues in 2025.

My first real enthusiast car was a C5 Z06 that I kept for 15 years. I would probably still have it except 8 years ago we moved to an area where two daily drivers are essential and I don't have a three car garage. I bought an Accord for myself and tried keeping the Vette in my hangar, but a rat nest in the engine compartment killed that plan. After looking carefully at the ATS, I bought an M240i because I didn't want to live with the lazy automatic in the ATS. Well, it turns out I can't live with the numb steering of the BMW, even though the car is perfect for me in every other way - enough power and good enough handling on the well maintained twisty roads I drive for entertainment. Those mountain road driving vacations are the only reason I need a better car than a Civic.

The test drive in the Blackwing was a revelation. Of course I didn't get to test out the steering feedback at the traction limit, but in ordinary driving the feedback was exceptional. The BMW is strictly an eyeball car - near centre there is no self-centering at all, so you have no idea what the car is doing unless you look. I got the feeling in the Blackwing that I could keep it centred in the lane for miles with my eyes closed, just using steering feedback.

Based on the road tests I'm expecting that the steering feedback will be great at the traction limit as well. This is important to me because I'm not an exceptional driver. The feedback at the limit is there on the BMW - it loads up as the limit is approached and lightens as the fronts start to slide - but it is so subtle that it takes too much concentration to detect it. Concentration that is better spent on what the rears are doing.

The Giulia was on my initial list to replace the BMW. but the dismal reliability and the 2.5 hours to the nearest dealer made it impossible to consider seriously. The other car that would satisfy my needs is a 911. While I can afford one, I can't justify the cost for a few driving vacations a year, nor do I want the maintenance hassles and the attention that exotic cars attract out here in the boondocks.

There are several CT4V BWs in stock within a thousand miles but all, including the lightly used one I got to drive, are equipped with things I absolutely don't want: perforated seats, sky cool grey seats, sunroofs, and most importantly, automatics. I'm not hopeful any dealer will stock a car anywhere near how I want it, so I will wait and hope for an allocation. I'm in my 70s, and I really don't want that numb steering BMW to be my last enthusiast car.

 

[Roadhawk]

Great write up albertw...welcome to the forum. I think a 4 BW will certainly fit your needs and you'll love driving it - daily and in a spirited manner...it doesn't disappoint.

I wouldn't wait on a 2025 however, By all indications there isn't going to be one.

 

[Dirkbg]

If you haven't tried the Cadillac inventory checker, do it. I did a quick search in a 500 mile radius of Central Ohio, limited to only manual trans, and got 66 hits. Look for cars with MSRP in the $60k range since they are most likely to not have top tier seats and sunroof, like this one: Site Maintenance
and this one Site Maintenance
and this Site Maintenance
and another red Site Maintenance

The black one has the mid-tier seats with the cloth seat inserts. Anyway, check and you will likely find some that meet the criteria you listed. Check the window sticker for each for actual equipment. Some stock images show sunroofs but they aren't on the window sticker list.

Inventory list, set to Central Ohio so change as needed:

Site Maintenance

 

[albertw]

Thanks, Dirkbg. Unfortunately checking inventory doesn't work very well here in western Canada. I have to build a car for a particular city on the Cadillac website, then ask for similar inventory at other dealers. That inventory is often incomplete or wrong, as I have found by checking inventory at individual dealers. So that's what I'm doing every few weeks - checking inventory at every dealer west of Manitoba. So far nothing close has come up. Also, I'm not willing to buy used - I'd rather keep my BMW than take a chance on a used car.

 

[Dirkbg]

Ah, OK. Didn't know you were north of the border. Can you buy in the US and import to Canada? Some of those I listed are in Michigan. May be more in Wisconsin and Minnesota, or Washington.

 

[shbox]

Thanks, Dirkbg. Unfortunately checking inventory doesn't work very well here in western Canada. I have to build a car for a particular city on the Cadillac website, then ask for similar inventory at other dealers. That inventory is often incomplete or wrong, as I have found by checking inventory at individual dealers. So that's what I'm doing every few weeks - checking inventory at every dealer west of Manitoba. So far nothing close has come up. Also, I'm not willing to buy used - I'd rather keep my BMW than take a chance on a used car.

It is much harder to get a new BW in Canada as allocations are lower than the USA.

 

[albertw]

Ah, OK. Didn't know you were north of the border. Can you buy in the US and import to Canada? Some of those I listed are in Michigan. May be more in Wisconsin and Minnesota, or Washington.

I've never heard of anyone importing a brand new car from the US. There are complicated rules for used cars, and new cars might simply be banned. Or maybe it's because you would have to take the car back to the US for warranty work.

 

[Jim2000]

If you haven't tried the Cadillac inventory checker, do it. I did a quick search in a 500 mile radius of Central Ohio, limited to only manual trans, and got 66 hits. Look for cars with MSRP in the $60k range since they are most likely to not have top tier seats and sunroof, like this one: Site Maintenance
and this one Site Maintenance
and this Site Maintenance
and another red Site Maintenance

The black one has the mid-tier seats with the cloth seat inserts. Anyway, check and you will likely find some that meet the criteria you listed. Check the window sticker for each for actual equipment. Some stock images show sunroofs but they aren't on the window sticker list.

Inventory list, set to Central Ohio so change as needed:

Site Maintenance

The dealer has over a 4k mark up on the red one. Shame on them.