For the sake of resale value I hope this is a mistake

[almazing]

I paid MSRP but my 4BW was pretty much a budget build at $61.5k. I keep the miles low and usually like to try something new every 2-3 years but it looks like I may need to drive this one a while longer. It is a good thing I really enjoy it.

This is just another example of a great GM car that doesn’t sell well. The 6th gen Camaro is arguably the best muscle car and it sold the worst of the big three. I am not sure what the problem is but when you have the best product but worst sales you have an issue. Pricing, branding, advertising?

Since when do non-Corvettes sell well? When I was shopping around before I bought my 4BW, I considered a Camaro SS 1LE. I called a few dealers and was told that their orders for Camaros spiked after GM said they were discontinuing them. 2 of the 3 dealers said they closed their books simply because they didn't know if GM could fill the orders and they didn't want to disappoint people.

I think Cadillac made as many 4BWs as they needed to. I mean, there are people here on this very forum still waiting for an allocation. I was one of them until I decided to buy dealer stock instead, and have no regrets. Overproducing means all orders get filled in a timely manner. The couple dozen or so people who placed an order for a 23 is now being bumped to a 24. Waiting months and months for a build allocation is far from being timely. I'd say they're under producing or producing just the right amount. If Cadillac sees that they're offering too many incentives, they'll stall production, which sucks for people with orders because I have a feeling dealers push them to the back burner in favor of their own dealer builds.

While there may be a lot of 4BWs on Autotrader, a lot of them are likely customer orders and have been pre-sold. In addition, dealers aren't exactly the best at updating their inventory in a timely manner. I bought my 4 BW from Covert Cadillac of Austin roughly 3 weeks ago. They had 5 manual 4BWs on the lot, including mine. I checked just now and they only have 1 manual 4BW sitting. So they sold 4 4BWs in 3 weeks. For a niche, low volume car like this, selling one a week is pretty damn great.

Like a lot of low volume, niche, special cars, especially on the domestic end, people sleep on them. Until it's too late. And then people who had a slight interest in one when they were still being produced are now on a damn warpath trying to buy one. I firmly believe that the 4BW will be sought after once GM announces that the 4BW is ending production in 202X.

I'm not saying 630 vehicles are on dealer lots. All traditional vehicle manufacturers that I know of list both dealer and customer produced orders automatically on these sites. What it does represent is the quantity of vehicles making into the hands of dealers and customers. If this number is high, which it is for the type of vehicle, then it means there is a lot of inventory on dealer lots and custom orders are readily being delivered. Which means that residuals aren't going to be artificially high and dealer markups are going to be more difficult to implement if not the need for discounts. You can compare the listed numbers of the 4BW to other vehicles like the Type R, M3/M4, Golf R, Supra, etc and see there are much less of those being delivered to customers and dealers.

You're forgetting that those are imports and are being delivered by ship, then train or truck to dealers. GM has decent tracking system, so it's easy to see just how many they are making, how many are on lots, etc. Cars coming from Japan and Europe don't really have that. Many times, these cars just show up out of nowhere without warning. I know because MY GR Corolla just came out of the blue. Dealer wasn't expecting it. They knew ONE was coming. Then bam. I get a call Tueday afternoon saying my car has arrived.

 

[Jameson's Viggen]

Everything thing you're talking about to me, is not emblematic of the cars, but the environment/economy cooling drastically.

This isn't a Cadillac issue. It's the market.

I absolutely don't need a 5th car. I was very tempted then reminded myself of 6-7% interest and totally cooled my jets.

 

[RDATLTE]

Since when do non-Corvettes sell well? When I was shopping around before I bought my 4BW, I considered a Camaro SS 1LE. I called a few dealers and was told that their orders for Camaros spiked after GM said they were discontinuing them. 2 of the 3 dealers said they closed their books simply because they didn't know if GM could fill the orders and they didn't want to disappoint people.

I think Cadillac made as many 4BWs as they needed to. I mean, there are people here on this very forum still waiting for an allocation. I was one of them until I decided to buy dealer stock instead, and have no regrets. Overproducing means all orders get filled in a timely manner. The couple dozen or so people who placed an order for a 23 is now being bumped to a 24. Waiting months and months for a build allocation is far from being timely. I'd say they're under producing or producing just the right amount. If Cadillac sees that they're offering too many incentives, they'll stall production, which sucks for people with orders because I have a feeling dealers push them to the back burner in favor of their own dealer builds.

While there may be a lot of 4BWs on Autotrader, a lot of them are likely customer orders and have been pre-sold. In addition, dealers aren't exactly the best at updating their inventory in a timely manner. I bought my 4 BW from Covert Cadillac of Austin roughly 3 weeks ago. They had 5 manual 4BWs on the lot, including mine. I checked just now and they only have 1 manual 4BW sitting. So they sold 4 4BWs in 3 weeks. For a niche, low volume car like this, selling one a week is pretty damn great.

Like a lot of low volume, niche, special cars, especially on the domestic end, people sleep on them. Until it's too late. And then people who had a slight interest in one when they were still being produced are now on a damn warpath trying to buy one. I firmly believe that the 4BW will be sought after once GM announces that the 4BW is ending production in 202X.




You're forgetting that those are imports and are being delivered by ship, then train or truck to dealers. GM has decent tracking system, so it's easy to see just how many they are making, how many are on lots, etc. Cars coming from Japan and Europe don't really have that. Many times, these cars just show up out of nowhere without warning. I know because MY GR Corolla just came out of the blue. Dealer wasn't expecting it. They knew ONE was coming. Then bam. I get a call Tueday afternoon saying my car has arrived.

Under producing does not result in cars sitting on lots and being discounted in order for them to sell.

 

[Dubbed.theB]

Run the VIN through Vroom and see what it comes back with. Vroom was the only online site I found that came back with an automated price on my 2022 4BW.

Vroom offered $58k. So it's pretty consistent.

The problem, I believe, is that dealer-ordered 4BWs are mostly autos with moonroofs. For this type of car those are 2 options I would never want. And most of the people looking for those options are not looking at this car. So now we have a ton of auto 4BWs sitting, getting discounts, because it is what the dealer ordered and tanking resale value for the cars that have sold. It's not GM that is the problem, they are just making what is being ordered... it's the dealers that are the issue.

 

[Ryan]

Under producing does not result in cars sitting on lots and being discounted in order for them to sell.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t every car sitting on a lot a car purchased by a dealership from Cadillac? Cadillac didn’t make too many cars, dealerships ordered too many. Or at least too many automatics.

This car shines at 65k with a stick shift. There’s a whole lot of competition at 75k with an auto. And the 90k sticker models are ludicrous.

 

[RDATLTE]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t every car sitting on a lot a car purchased by a dealership from Cadillac? Cadillac didn’t make too many cars, dealerships ordered too many. Or at least too many automatics.

This car shines at 65k with a stick shift. There’s a whole lot of competition at 75k with an auto. And the 90k sticker models are ludicrous.

Don’t dealerships require an allocation from Corporate in order to order a car?

 

[Ryan]

Don’t dealerships require an allocation from Corporate in order to order a car?

Absolutely, but no one is forcing them to use those allocations. A year ago when every car was flying off the lots, packing cars with every stupid option and dealer installed accessory made profits. The pendulum has swung back, and some dealerships have been slow to change. Now they are reaping the harvest they have sown.

 

[RDATLTE]

Absolutely, but no one is forcing them to use those allocations. A year ago when every car was flying off the lots, packing cars with every stupid option and dealer installed accessory made profits. The pendulum has swung back, and some dealerships have been slow to change. Now they are reaping the harvest they have sown.

Why wouldn’t they? If the cars don’t sell, Corporate will bail them out.

 

[raptor5244]

Vroom offered $58k. So it's pretty consistent.

The problem, I believe, is that dealer-ordered 4BWs are mostly autos with moonroofs. For this type of car those are 2 options I would never want. And most of the people looking for those options are not looking at this car. So now we have a ton of auto 4BWs sitting, getting discounts, because it is what the dealer ordered and tanking resale value for the cars that have sold. It's not GM that is the problem, they are just making what is being ordered... it's the dealers that are the issue.

I feel the same way. I see this car as a Camaro alternative. They fix the visibility, trunk, more practical with 4 doors but maintain all the performance goodies from an SS1LE with and longer warranty. IMO, it is a $60k vehicle. There is not enough luxury here to warrant a $25k increase over a SS1LE.

 

[Dubbed.theB]

That's the Cadi tax for you. For the same price as my 4BW spec I could have had the ZL1 Camaro... but the want for 4 doors and better visibility was worth it to me at the time. I keep eyeing Camaros though...

 

[raptor5244]

That's the Cadi tax for you. For the same price as my 4BW spec I could have had the ZL1 Camaro... but the want for 4 doors and better visibility was worth it to me at the time. I keep eyeing Camaros though...

I traded a ZL1 for the 4BW. I like the 4BW better. It is more fun to drive on the street as it feels quite a bit smaller and lighter even though it’s not. Then add in the better visibility and overall practicality and it is a much easier car to live with as a daily driver. The only thing I miss from the ZL1 is the V8 exhaust note.

 

[savethemanual]

I traded a ZL1 for the 4BW. I like the 4BW better. It is more fun to drive on the street as it feels quite a bit smaller and lighter even though it’s not. Then add in the better visibility and overall practicality and it is a much easier car to live with as a daily driver. The only thing I miss from the ZL1 is the V8 exhaust note.

+1
my last 2 fun cars were the 22 BRZ and a 17 camaro SS.
The blackwing is somewhere in the middle in terms of feel and way more practical than both. I get to use the car a lot more since my kid AND wife fit in it as opposed to having to choose between them.

 

[Tall Steve]

+1
my last 2 fun cars were the 22 BRZ and a 17 camaro SS.
The blackwing is somewhere in the middle in terms of feel and way more practical than both. I get to use the car a lot more since my kid AND wife fit in it as opposed to having to choose between them.

I have a 23 BRZ on order that is supposed to be delivered next month.... It will be for my son, not me...

 

[Throat Yogurt]

The reality is quite different from perception. The vast majority doesn't want to row gears otherwise you would have the other mfg's offering that option. The current take rate for BW 6speeds is probably 50% which is EXTREMELY high in these types of vehicles i.e. sport sedans.

The problem is that there is no such thing as a "take rate" on manuals for the Blackwing, because a significant portion of Blackwings produced were dealer stock orders. And dealers buying for their own stock vastly favor automatics, because that is what they think everyone wants. When shopping for my car, two dealerships told me that they only order autos and only black and white.

If there were a way to filter pre-sold orders from dealer stock orders, we'd be able to get a much more accurate idea of the real demand for manual vs. automatic.

 

[savethemanual]

I have a 23 BRZ on order that is supposed to be delivered next month.... It will be for my son, not me...

It's a fun car. If I had room I would have kept that.

 

[Tall Steve]

It's a fun car. If I had room I would have kept that.

My son is kind of excited to get it..

 

[almazing]

The problem is that there is no such thing as a "take rate" on manuals for the Blackwing, because a significant portion of Blackwings produced were dealer stock orders. And dealers buying for their own stock vastly favor automatics, because that is what they think everyone wants. When shopping for my car, two dealerships told me that they only order autos and only black and white.

If there were a way to filter pre-sold orders from dealer stock orders, we'd be able to get a much more accurate idea of the real demand for manual vs. automatic.

Yep. The dealer local to me was the same way. I told the salesguy and his manager that if they had ordered manuals instead, I would have bought one right away, and their 4 automatics wouldn't be sitting. Then they continually passed up an allocation that should have been mine to order even more automatics that no one wants to buy. So I bought from an out of state Cadillac dealer that knows the type of customer that would buy a Blackwing because they had 5 manual 4BWs on the lot, all in differing price ranges and options.

The vast majority of Cadillac dealers are so out of touch with the enthusiast automotive landscape, that it's costing them damn near guaranteed sales. People that buy Blackwings(formerly Vs in the previous generation) are not their typical senior citizen customer base. But dealers think they know better than car enthusiasts at what car enthusiasts want.

 

[bloominguez]

I have a 23 BRZ on order that is supposed to be delivered next month.... It will be for my son, not me...

Jealous!! I'm half-trying to order a GR 86 (or a few other options that are less realistic, such as the new Tacoma) because I get Toyota employee pricing now that my daughter works there. Unfortunately the dealers near me don't want to participate in the employee discount plan in today's market environment. #firstworldproblems FWIW, my daughter is working on getting a GR Corolla, not sure she'll be successful.

Speaking of resale (nominal title of this thread), I even drove a Lexus IS 500 (obviously, Toyota employee pricing also applies to Lexus) to check out their 5-liter 470 hp naturally aspirated V8. That engine is an absolute gem, it's fantastic. Sadly, the automatic transmission really destroys the experience of the car. There is some thought that people want this V8 (available in a few Lexus models), it's the last of a breed, but I can't help but think how much more special it would be with a manual, or even a decent automatic.

 

[almazing]

Jealous!! I'm half-trying to order a GR 86 (or a few other options that are less realistic, such as the new Tacoma) because I get Toyota employee pricing now that my daughter works there. Unfortunately the dealers near me don't want to participate in the employee discount plan in today's market environment. #firstworldproblems FWIW, my daughter is working on getting a GR Corolla, not sure she'll be successful.

Speaking of resale (nominal title of this thread), I even drove a Lexus IS 500 (obviously, Toyota employee pricing also applies to Lexus) to check out their 5-liter 470 hp naturally aspirated V8. That engine is an absolute gem, it's fantastic. Sadly, the automatic transmission really destroys the experience of the car. There is some thought that people want this V8 (available in a few Lexus models), it's the last of a breed, but I can't help but think how much more special it would be with a manual, or even a decent automatic.

I think the OG IS F would be a living legend if Toyota decided to be smart and put a manual in it. Even if only the OG IS F had the manual and the successors didn't. They would be worth so much more nowadays too. Could have been a true collector car like the Mk. 4 Supra.

 

[PrimeTime]

A track capable V6 Twin T rocket on rails with an automatic is not appealing? I'm looking for the right steal, right now....Keep it clean.