TC/Stabilitrak overly intrusive

[BimmerFan]

Would you mind expanding on this? I'm curious what you mean by "superior"...less complicated, better programmed, other?

I've not yet (and probably never will) drive the BW on track, but the BMW systems are very capable there. In my own personal experience, I've noticed that the slightest bit of throttle application in wet conditions will have the BW lose traction and I can catch and release throttle before the computer even recognizes what's going on. It's just kind of slow. Not so with the BMW. The BMW is also much less complicated, but one could argue that the additional complication in the Caddy gives you more flexibility.

I did test it once in a deserted parking lot, and the traction system does work, it just takes too long (IMHO) to do anything.

I experienced the Corvette stability control (in a C5 Z06) on track, and found it to be terribly intrusive and not confidence-inspiring.

Not to toot my own horn or brag or anything, but I'm a very experienced driver, having done tens of thousands of miles on the track, a former HPDE instructor, so I personally am fine with turning off all of the nannies when on track. But honestly, I'm not taking the BW on track because aside from the cost of the car, it's really just too fast and too powerful for my comfort level to be driving 10/10ths.

I do plan to go to SM in September, so I'll learn more there about the car and hopefully have a chance to experiment with some of the settings more, in someone else's car. LOL

 

[rubberduck]

I do plan to go to SM in September, so I'll learn more there about the car and hopefully have a chance to experiment with some of the settings more, in someone else's car. LOL

This will be great. I'm looking forward to the PDR footage of your spin outs. Don't forget to get the optional insurance.

 

[vblkwng]

This will be great. I'm looking forward to the PDR footage of your spin outs. Don't forget to get the optional insurance.

It's funny people act like spinouts are a big deal, I've never spun out at the academy because well, it's their car, but I have a good 8 spinouts on track specifically their Charleston Peak course.

Track 1 will drop power if you lose traction or the car slides, Track 2 keeps power but will try to keep you straight.

 

[vblkwng]

PTM question

I haven't been to the Spring Mountain class yet, so I've had no education on PTM, and I bought my car remotely so the dealer never had a chance to show me 'nuttin. Reading the owner's manual, I came across these descriptions. RACE 1. For use by drivers who are familiar with the track.. Dry...

www.cadillacvnet.com

 

[thefleshrocket]

I am looking for the "right amount" of stupid, lol.

IMO, there is no such setting that provides the "right amount" of stupid. Race2, which is what I drive around in when I hit the V button, still only lets you get a little bit sideways before the nannies kick in. Not enough "stupid". If you press and hold the twin-squiggly-line button for about 10 seconds, that turns off the nannies entirely, which means you can pirouette the car into the weeds with ease.. too much "stupid". There should be something in between Race2 and raw-dog mode, but there's not.

 

[AC2024]

IMO, there is no such setting that provides the "right amount" of stupid. Race2, which is what I drive around in when I hit the V button, still only lets you get a little bit sideways before the nannies kick in. Not enough "stupid". If you press and hold the twin-squiggly-line button for about 10 seconds, that turns off the nannies entirely, which means you can pirouette the car into the weeds with ease.. too much "stupid". There should be something in between Race2 and raw-dog mode, but there's not.

Yea, I get it. Looking at the previous replies - with my 335, if i "short press" the traction control button one time, the BMW goes into Dynamic Traction Control, which is a really nice mode to be in. It allows the "right amount" of stupid - and the when the intervention happens is very natural and gradual - feels like the car is working with you, not against you. With the BW, I feel like the nannies are fighting against you and when the intervene, its like a sledgehammer.

It seems like the BMW has 3 modes (street, track (sport+), and fun (TC short push)) whereas the BW only has 2 (street, and track). The BW seems to be focused on going around the track fast, not hooning around. That's not a knock on the car at all, its just a bit disappointing!

 

[vblkwng]

Yea, I get it. Looking at the previous replies - with my 335, if i "short press" the traction control button one time, the BMW goes into Dynamic Traction Control, which is a really nice mode to be in. It allows the "right amount" of stupid - and the when the intervention happens is very natural and gradual - feels like the car is working with you, not against you. With the BW, I feel like the nannies are fighting against you and when the intervene, its like a sledgehammer.

It seems like the BMW has 3 modes (street, track (sport+), and fun (TC short push)) whereas the BW only has 2 (street, and track). The BW seems to be focused on going around the track fast, not hooning around. That's not a knock on the car at all, its just a bit disappointing!

If I remember correctly KZ, and Mirza pointed out the fastest times they got with the BW was in Track 2. KZ tuned the TCM so that if your input is correct, it doesn't intrude much, it uses steering angle, slip, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, and lots of other data in its calculation on interference. If you feel the Traction Management is intruding a lot or too much, you might be doing something wrong, and maybe re-evaluate your racing line or track strategy. I've seen most of the interference for me usually on exits of a turn when I hit throttle too hard.

For me these are problem areas which the car will avoid me spinning out or change power delivery

 

[AC2024]

If I remember correctly KZ, and Mirza pointed out the fastest times they got with the BW was in Track 2. KZ tuned the TCM so that if your input is correct, it doesn't intrude much, it uses steering angle, slip, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, and lots of other data in its calculation on interference. If you feel the Traction Management is intruding a lot or too much, you might be doing something wrong, and maybe re-evaluate your racing line or track strategy. I've seen most of the interference for me usually on exits of a turn when I hit throttle too hard.

For me these are problem areas which the car will avoid me spinning out or change power delivery
View attachment 25538

Yea, totally agree. that was kind of my point. Trying to get a bit sideways is certainly not the fastest way around a track, so i am definitely "doing something wrong" (on purpose!).

That's kind of my point - this car is about going fast around a track, not going sideways around a track!

 

[vblkwng]

Yea, totally agree. that was kind of my point. Trying to get a bit sideways is certainly not the fastest way around a track, so i am definitely "doing something wrong" (on purpose!).

That's kind of my point - this car is about going fast around a track, not going sideways around a track!

Yep, if you want to drift and joy ride, I'd disable everything, but i'd rather not wreck my 100k car that bad

 

[Grainofsand]

FWIW,

As you have experienced, Track Mode gets you access to the various PTM Modes. PTM modes use predictive slip angles to modulate power as well as using selective braking, spark retard, etc.

Competitive Driving Mode (double tap of TC button while in Sport Mode) disables Traction Control but relaxes the StabiliTrak (yaw sensor) to allow for greater yaw/slip angles so you can drift the car a bit. If this system behaves the same way as my Corvettes did then main difference between CMode and PTM, is that Cmode is reactive.

Competitive Driving Mode should not be equated to PTM. Performance Traction Management is exactly what it says, utilizing an advanced traction management system for managing & enhancing traction. You can literally feel it engaging when you are applying throttle to get the maximum traction, keeping the tires right at the limit of adhesion. It's different than normal Traction Control, which is often too aggressive in cutting power, designed more for safety than performance. Competitive Drive Mode is more about dialing back Traction Control and StabiliTrak so they are less intrusive. I am not sure of the max slip angle but CMode will let you get sideways quite and bit before it cuts power and starts applying the brakes at the necessary wheels to prevent a full spin. Easy to test on a wet road.

Lastly, if you find a suitable road and accept the risk you can hold the TC button down for 5-8 seconds and it will turn all the nannies off.

Nice! Thanks for this post. I always thought C-mode was the least intrusive, but it sounds like holding down the TC button for 8 seconds is the least intrusive one.

 

[raptor5244]

Nice! Thanks for this post. I always thought C-mode was the least intrusive, but it sounds like holding down the TC button for 8 seconds is the least intrusive one.

Yep, on earlier vehicles prior to PTM, we really only had Competitive Driving Mode, which was a mode to have some fun with a safety net built in if you get too sideways. Otherwise it is Stabiltrak on or off. When the Electronic LSD (E-Diff) arrived all these PTM modes became available.

Here is a quick overview video of how the E-Diffs we have in our Camaros, Corvettes and Blackwings improve handling and enable us get around the track quicker. Once you see how the eLSD works it is easier to understand how the engineers program the PTM modes.

 

[Matt27]

I've found PTM sport to be a bit of a "party" mode, especially at low speeds. Easy to throw the car in and sit in a little low angle, easily controlled slide. Works best in the wet, obviously.

Otherwise the limits on the car are mostly too high to access on a public road.

 

[minn19]

I've not yet (and probably never will) drive the BW on track, but the BMW systems are very capable there. In my own personal experience, I've noticed that the slightest bit of throttle application in wet conditions will have the BW lose traction and I can catch and release throttle before the computer even recognizes what's going on. It's just kind of slow. Not so with the BMW. The BMW is also much less complicated, but one could argue that the additional complication in the Caddy gives you more flexibility.

I did test it once in a deserted parking lot, and the traction system does work, it just takes too long (IMHO) to do anything.

I experienced the Corvette stability control (in a C5 Z06) on track, and found it to be terribly intrusive and not confidence-inspiring.

Not to toot my own horn or brag or anything, but I'm a very experienced driver, having done tens of thousands of miles on the track, a former HPDE instructor, so I personally am fine with turning off all of the nannies when on track. But honestly, I'm not taking the BW on track because aside from the cost of the car, it's really just too fast and too powerful for my comfort level to be driving 10/10ths.

I do plan to go to SM in September, so I'll learn more there about the car and hopefully have a chance to experiment with some of the settings more, in someone else's car. LOL

I don’t have nearly the track experience you do, but I do have a decent amount. Not sure what BMWs you are referencing, but the F80/82 TC was either extremely intrusive or close to non existent. I’ve found the PTM modes in previous ZL1 (1LE) and now 4VBW/C8 Z06 to be light years better.

I occasionally drove my 4VBW in the snow last winter on Conti DWS06s in tour and sport mode. I appreciated with full nannies on it didn’t abruptly/immediately cut the power and let the tires spin a little to get going or allow you to make minor corrections.

Whether on the track or the street the F80/82 were either way too much or way too little. I appreciate with all the PTM modes you have a lot in between. I remember talking to the M school instructors in SC about it and they didn’t like them either for essentially the same reasons, but they also admitted they mostly drove with all of the nannies off. Which, obviously makes sense since they are all current or ex pros.

I haven't driven any of the G series cars as I’m not interested in any of them for various reasons, but I have heard TC modes are better with those.

Edit: I did own a M4CS and that was one hell of a car. Was too bad it took a CS to get what mostly should’ve been in the rest of the F series M3/4 cars, especially the suspension.

 

[BimmerFan]

Not sure what BMWs you are referencing, but the F80/82 TC was either extremely intrusive or close to non existent.

Well... I guess it's a matter of perspective and personal experience. And the car, since you have a CT4 and I have a CT5.

I never drove my G82 on track with nannies on. I have driven several F80 cars at the BMW PC where they won't let you turn off DSC, and although it does (IMHO) limit the fun, I thought the way that it controlled/stabilized the car was well done. Of course, that was on the track where I was trying my best to blow up the car, street experience would be different.

So, my conclusion is, who knows?!!!! LOL

 

[minn19]

Well... I guess it's a matter of perspective and personal experience. And the car, since you have a CT4 and I have a CT5.

I never drove my G82 on track with nannies on. I have driven several F80 cars at the BMW PC where they won't let you turn off DSC, and although it does (IMHO) limit the fun, I thought the way that it controlled/stabilized the car was well done. Of course, that was on the track where I was trying my best to blow up the car, street experience would be different.

So, my conclusion is, who knows?!!!! LOL

Completely agree, sorry if seemed like I was attacking you, that wasn’t the intent, just sharing my experiences as well.

Also agreed, the 4 and 5 could be different. Also not apples to apples, but I have a lot of miles and some track time in ZL1s with the similar drivetrain. My first GM performance car was a ZL1 1LE and the T/C PTM modes were a revelation for me in a very good way over my BMW experience.

My previous ZLE, regular ZL1 and now 4V BW all act quite similarly across the modes. I just got my Z06 fully broke in and will start playing with the modes, guessing those will feel quite familiar as well.

It also could come down that you are more of an experienced/expert track driver. At my best on a very good day, I’d call myself an intermediate/decent track driver. Definitely not an expert/wouldn’t run with your group.

 

[BimmerFan]

It also could come down that you are more of an experienced/expert track driver.

I'm not nearly as good as I used to think I was.

Everyone is Max Verstappen on the Internet.

 

[BimmerFan]

...sorry if seemed like I was attacking you, that wasn’t the intent, just sharing my experiences as well.

No worries, I did not take it that way. I appreciate the comment and the sharing.

 

[Orange Whip]

General reply: this is a great thread and I really appreciate everyone's insight.

 

[Turtleb00st]

Excuse me for a moment while I put on my old man hat.

First, to the OP's point, I do believe that the BMW traction/stability management systems (me coming from a G82 M4) are superior to GM's. I've experienced in both Corvettes and the BW, FWIW.

Second, seriously guys, don't be doing this crap on public streets. If you are losing traction at all, to any degree, on public streets, you are a menace and endangering other people. Save it for the track. Or an empty parking lot.

Blah blah blah. Getting sideways on a wide right of left turn, with no traffic, no pedestrian at under 50mph……. I shouldn’t do that? why even own a rwd performance car?

A menace . Only risk is to my self, and it’s minimal. The roads we drive on are a menace full of inattentive drivers

Even spirited driving in “track” mode the nanny’s are intrusive Af. Throttle response, which is amazing in this car is dulled unless in ptm race 2.

I do turn everything off, but it is rare. Race 2 is perfect for some fun. I really liked my f80 in Mdm with the euro Mdm coding.

On a 15 mile or so round trip drive, I got the car sideways with some fun slip angle in 2nd gear 2 times. Beautiful Sunday drive. I am by no means as experienced as some of the guys here, but I have seen my fair share of auto-x and usually was usually extremely competitive in my respective classes. I have also drove very high homo, sketchy cars before all this traction stuff was put in modern cars.

I did not buy my car to drive in touring all day waiting for the 1/2 days a year to larp around a proper track, and then larp around with all the Nannie’s on.

 

[Turtleb00st]

It's funny people act like spinouts are a big deal, I've never spun out at the academy because well, it's their car, but I have a good 8 spinouts on track specifically their Charleston Peak course.

Track 1 will drop power if you lose traction or the car slides, Track 2 keeps power but will try to keep you straight.

My understanding and experience is that track 2 only very minimally will pull timing/cut power. It does nothing to “keep the car straight” if you will. The e diff can only do so much playing with lock up levels

Iv felt the car braking individual wheels when in sport or track mode when the ecu doesn’t like the calculations it’s making.