For the sake of resale value I hope this is a mistake

[minn19]

Unfortunately it’s a well earned perception/reputation that has been earned by US manufacturers from decades of letting the bean counters win and put out absolute crap for decades. I’m not a badge whore, I love cars and will try something if it is a cool fun car to drive. Unfortunately they are still falling very short here and there.

I’ve all but given up on Ford, my first GT350 was in the shop for the first four out of six months. My second GT350 that I was trade assisted into because of the first ones problems was good until 10k miles and then started having the same issues, especially the Voodoos ring issues and drinking oil.

My ZL1s (one regular and one MT 1LE) were trouble free, but build quality and QC was lacking. The bumper of one was hanging off/not connected properly at delivery (a known issue) and they just shrugged. On top of this, if you do have issues and you happen to get a loaner, you get a Fiesta, Focus, Cobalt or Trax etc. Plus, these service departments aren’t used to performance cars and you are lucky if they even know what the correct oil is for an oil change.

My BMWs, Porsches and MBs have all been rock solid except for my 911s oddly enough had the most rattles of any of them. All were immensely capable, but aside from a couple were lacking that fun factor/personality Jason Cammisa talks about all the time. The F gen M2/M4 CS, AMG C63S (I miss that TTV8 more than any other motor) and last my 6MT Cayman GTS 4.0 had personality and then some.

My GT350s and ZL1s did to and the 4 BW most definitely does. Where these are let down is by the cost cutting corporate types (especially at Ford) and their dealer networks. The worst I’ve ever been treated is by domestic dealerships, especially until recently Cadillac ones. I wanted to sit in a C8 at a Chevy dealership and they had it roped off. They said if I bought I could sit in it, it was 40k over at the height of the madness of the last few years. No Cadillac dealer would let me test drive an ATS/CTS V and droned on about how special they were. I could/can walk into a Porsche or BMW dealer and test drive nearly anything I want without the 70s used car salesman BS.

Any way, long rant coming to an end, the reputation from US brands is well earned from top to bottom and the culture needs to change. And it needs to remain changed for years/decades to change these well earned reputations. I was disappointed with my 911 experiences and wanted to get back into a much more DD friendly fun sedan. A friend/car guy that I trust said to finally give Cadillac a try with one of the BWs. I’m glad I did as it is an amazing car. Unfortunately the dealer experience was uneven. Sales was ok, but I have a big mark on my lower side blade and it was detailed very poorly. I wont even bother having them try and fix it as they’ll keep it for too long and probably just make it worse. Sadly because of this, I won’t bring it in for the free service and just do it myself to make sure the oil/diff changes get done correctly.

End rant, hope it made some sense in what we are talking about.

 

[minn19]

I think you summed it up. True car enthusiasts know how good the Blackwings are. The problem is that there are fewer and fewer car enthusiasts nowadays. When you get into this price point for sports sedan many folks are buying the badge for status and don't even know how many cylinders they have under the hood.

Cadillac is still perceived as an old brand, the cars your grandparents drive and I don't see them really trying to attract a new customer base. Remember when they tried to change the brand perception of Oldsmobile? I am no expert in marketing but this is not an easy problem to fix. They would probably be better off creating a GM performance brand/division and stick all their performance cars together and create some car culture again. Corvette, V-series sports sedans, Camaro (RIP), performance trucks, etc. I am not a Dodge fan but they did an unbelievable job marketing the Challenger and Charger over the past decade or so. Cool aggressive styling, tons of colors and trims to chose from, great commercials, etc. Unfortunately the shift to EV is going to destroy about 90% of their customer base.

View attachment 20809

It’s crazy that GM doesn’t advertise or market in any meaningful way their performance cars. All I see is hokey truck and SUV commercials. The only Cadillac one I know of is that extremely annoying one for their upcoming electric car IIRC.

 

[ukcats12]

Unfortunately it’s a well earned perception/reputation that has been earned by US manufacturers from decades of letting the bean counters win and put out absolute crap for decades. I’m not a badge whore, I love cars and will try something if it is a cool fun car to drive. Unfortunately they are still falling very short here and there.

I’ve all but given up on Ford, my first GT350 was in the shop for the first four out of six months. My second GT350 that I was trade assisted into because of the first ones problems was good until 10k miles and then started having the same issues, especially the Voodoos ring issues and drinking oil.

My ZL1s (one regular and one MT 1LE) were trouble free, but build quality and QC was lacking. The bumper of one was hanging off/not connected properly at delivery (a known issue) and they just shrugged. On top of this, if you do have issues and you happen to get a loaner, you get a Fiesta, Focus, Cobalt or Trax etc. Plus, these service departments aren’t used to performance cars and you are lucky if they even know what the correct oil is for an oil change.

My BMWs, Porsches and MBs have all been rock solid except for my 911s oddly enough had the most rattles of any of them. All were immensely capable, but aside from a couple were lacking that fun factor/personality Jason Cammisa talks about all the time. The F gen M2/M4 CS, AMG C63S (I miss that TTV8 more than any other motor) and last my 6MT Cayman GTS 4.0 had personality and then some.

My GT350s and ZL1s did to and the 4 BW most definitely does. Where these are let down is by the cost cutting corporate types (especially at Ford) and their dealer networks. The worst I’ve ever been treated is by domestic dealerships, especially until recently Cadillac ones. I wanted to sit in a C8 at a Chevy dealership and they had it roped off. They said if I bought I could sit in it, it was 40k over at the height of the madness of the last few years. No Cadillac dealer would let me test drive an ATS/CTS V and droned on about how special they were. I could/can walk into a Porsche or BMW dealer and test drive nearly anything I want without the 70s used car salesman BS.

Any way, long rant coming to an end, the reputation from US brands is well earned from top to bottom and the culture needs to change. And it needs to remain changed for years/decades to change these well earned reputations. I was disappointed with my 911 experiences and wanted to get back into a much more DD friendly fun sedan. A friend/car guy that I trust said to finally give Cadillac a try with one of the BWs. I’m glad I did as it is an amazing car. Unfortunately the dealer experience was uneven. Sales was ok, but I have a big mark on my lower side blade and it was detailed very poorly. I wont even bother having them try and fix it as they’ll keep it for too long and probably just make it worse. Sadly because of this, I won’t bring it in for the free service and just do it myself to make sure the oil/diff changes get done correctly.

End rant, hope it made some sense in what we are talking about.

I do think it's a reputation that probably has some truth to it, but at this point it's well documented what the Blackwings are. This isn't wondering why someone won't take a chance on a Blackwing before the reviews came out, it's wondering why someone wouldn't buy one after review after review after review has said the CT5 may just be the best performance sedan of all time and that the CT4 is easily the best driving sedan in its segment. I would hope that any true car enthusiast could appreciate that and put aside any preconceived notions about the brand.

I think it's funny you mentioned the C63S. With the exception of the engine, that car bored me to death after the honeymoon period wore off. And it felt like the interior was held together with chewing gum and popsicle sticks. Damn near everything rattled and buzzed. I thought I would miss it when I sold it, but after getting rid of it I just felt relief. I know everyone's different, but to me personally it did not live up to its price tag. And the dealer interactions, particularly the one I bought it from, was the worst dealer experience of my life.

 

[minn19]

I do think it's a reputation that probably has some truth to it, but at this point it's well documented what the Blackwings are. This isn't wondering why someone won't take a chance on a Blackwing before the reviews came out, it's wondering why someone wouldn't buy one after review after review after review has said the CT5 may just be the best performance sedan of all time and that the CT4 is easily the best driving sedan in its segment. I would hope that any true car enthusiast could appreciate that and put aside any preconceived notions about the brand.

I think it's funny you mentioned the C63S. With the exception of the engine, that car bored me to death after the honeymoon period wore off. And it felt like the interior was held together with chewing gum and popsicle sticks. Damn near everything rattled and buzzed. I thought I would miss it when I sold it, but after getting rid of it I just felt relief. I know everyone's different, but to me personally it did not live up to its price tag. And the dealer interactions, particularly the one I bought it from, was the worst dealer experience of my life.

Again, it’s not just the cars Cadillac/GM etc has to overcome rep wise for people to take a chance on. People are tired of their crappy build quality/QC and the overall dealer network. I had a small problem with my C63S and they gave me my pick of loaner cars, I drove out in an S class for the hell of it. What do you think the C8 Z06 owner that paid 200k for their car is going to get while they replace the engine?

FWIW, three years ago I paid nearly the same for my C63S as I did for my 4 BW. we’ll have to agree to disagree on the C63S. I look at that car as a German BW, one of the few cars I truly regret trading in. That motor in a compact sedan was a riot.

 

[savethemanual]

I just picked up a new 23 CT4-V BW last night and got 6k off. Four from a Cadillac rebate and another two off from the dealer. Nice to see some deals are starting to come back in certain markets, unfortunately as everyone is aware, interest rates suck. That won’t be changing for awhile.

What was the MSRP on it? And M6?

 

[minn19]

What was the MSRP on it? And M6?

75,xxx and the auto 10.

 

[savethemanual]

75,xxx and the auto 10.

Ah, that kinda explains the large discount.
I am seeing manuals with 4k off but they are either very sparse with absolutely no options in undesirable colors or one of the 80K+ ones.

 

[raptor5244]

Ah, that kinda explains the large discount.
I am seeing manuals with 4k off but they are either very sparse with absolutely no options in undesirable colors or one of the 80K+ ones.

You basically have to order one but good luck trying to get your order filled as dealers seemed to keep skipping my allocation to get a fully loaded automatics that they can't sell and now have listed for $6k-$8k off. Glad I found the spec I wanted.

 

[PL69]

You basically have to order one but good luck trying to get your order filled as dealers seemed to keep skipping my allocation to get a fully loaded automatics that they can't sell and now have listed for $6k-$8k off. Glad I found the spec I wanted.

This !!!! I got call for allocation and they keep me on the wait for confirmation after I send a build 10k lower than they expected with the suede seats, no sunroof, silver calipers etc.

The caddi dealers attitude is laughable.

 

[minn19]

Ah, that kinda explains the large discount.
I am seeing manuals with 4k off but they are either very sparse with absolutely no options in undesirable colors or one of the 80K+ ones.

This is basically why I bought my car. I waited 19 months for my Porsche and didn’t want to play that game again. I know this is sacrilegious here, but I was 50/50 on getting a manual or auto. It was 98% the way I would’ve built one so I jumped on it.

If people don’t mind waiting until late fall through next spring, they are going to get some amazing deals on these things. You will just have to be flexible on giving up some things you might want or things on the car you didn’t want.

My must haves were PDR, no sunroof, at least mid tier seats, HP steering wheel and I got lucky with Argent Silver as it is my favorite color on these. Otherwise I would’ve been somewhat flexible on color.

 

[raptor5244]

Unfortunately it’s a well earned perception/reputation that has been earned by US manufacturers from decades of letting the bean counters win and put out absolute crap for decades. I’m not a badge whore, I love cars and will try something if it is a cool fun car to drive. Unfortunately they are still falling very short here and there.

Yep, we have seen this more and more from companies. When finance runs the company instead of the engineers and product managers the products suffer and you lose touch with the customer. As it relates to enthusiast vehicles we have seen this behavior from Toyota over the years but now they are trying to change it by releasing GR86, Supra, GR Corolla, performance truck packages, instead of just Camrys and RAV4s.

 

[raptor5244]

This !!!! I got call for allocation and they keep me on the wait for confirmation after I send a build 10k lower than they expected with the suede seats, no sunroof, silver calipers etc.

The caddi dealers attitude is laughable.

This is where Tesla is light-years ahead. I ordered two Teslas online, they emailed me a VIN in a few days and scheduled delivery and I was in and out in 15 minutes. When I bought my 4BW, I had to spend all day negotiating down to MSRP, then negotiating the trade-in, then off to the finance guy that tries to sell you about 100 protection packages, blah blah. The younger generation won't buy this way so the dealers needs to adapt and change their ways or better yet, the manufacturers should just sell direct and eliminate the BS in the middle.

 

[rubberduck]

This is where Tesla is light-years ahead. I ordered two Teslas online, they emailed me a VIN in a few days and scheduled delivery and I was in and out in 15 minutes. When I bought my 4BW, I had to spend all day negotiating down to MSRP, then negotiating the trade-in, then off to the finance guy that tries to sell you about 100 protection packages, blah blah. The younger generation won't buy this way so the dealers needs to adapt and change their ways or better yet, the manufacturers should just sell direct and eliminate the BS in the middle.

I'm an old-ish guy and I like the negotiation and challenge of buying a car. A lot of young kids are lacking face-to-face skills and seem to prefer to do everything online. I hate texting except to setup a phone call or in person meet-up. This phone app crap is resulting in very high levels of teen depression and unhappiness. Steve Jobs warned us about this a long time ago and now it's proving true.

 

[Tall Steve]

I'm an old-ish guy and I like the negotiation and challenge of buying a car. A lot of young kids are lacking face-to-face skills and seem to prefer to do everything online. I hate texting except to setup a phone call or in person meet-up. This phone app crap is resulting in very high levels of teen depression and unhappiness. Steve Jobs warned us about this a long time ago and now it's proving true.

 

[vj123]

Like others have said, it's brand perception. I know for me personally, there definitely was a mental hurdle to clear before I sold my C63S to get a Blackwing. Every single person I've told about the move thinks I'm crazy except for one older guy I know who really appreciates American cars.

It's not a hugely accurate representation of car enthusiasts, but when I post on the BMW and AMG pages on Reddit and have CT5 Blackwing as my flair, I get tons of comments along the lines of "Sorry you couldn't afford the M5/E63, but it's cute you have a fast Chevy." Maybe about 10% of comments are positive and really know how good the Blackwings actually are. The general car page over there appreciates the Blackwings much more, but anyone with any sort of brand loyalty to a German brand, or preconceived notion about Cadillac, probably is not going to buy one.

And it doesn't help that M and AMG have basically become status brands instead of enthusiast brands. People drive those cars for the badge now. V or Blackwing just doesn't mean the same thing to your normal person, but even non-car people are relatively aware of what an AMG or M car is. So people buy the M and the AMG, think they're something special, and don't really care about driving dynamics.

Having owned a G80 M3, i am active in Bimmerpost and BMW as a whole is becoming more of a lifestyle brand which is pretty evident in their products as well. In one of the polls (with over 700 responses), over 60% of the people say current G8x platform is their first M vehicle. Every time there is a discussion about BW, people post stupid comments which shows their ignorance. I dont think most of them care on how the vehicle drives and are stuck with perception.

Regarding G8x as a product, i believe BMW conceived this platform as a Grandtourer to expand their customer base and milk every penny from this generation by extending production cycle. I sold my G80 after 4 months of ownership as it lacked driving character and driver engagement. I am aware of few people who replaced their G8x vehicles with BWs as well. I was very close in buying a 4BW and 5BW in the meantime but a few aspects gravitated me towards the ZL1 as the G80 replacement.

 

[ukcats12]

I'm an old-ish guy and I like the negotiation and challenge of buying a car. A lot of young kids are lacking face-to-face skills and seem to prefer to do everything online. I hate texting except to setup a phone call or in person meet-up. This phone app crap is resulting in very high levels of teen depression and unhappiness. Steve Jobs warned us about this a long time ago and now it's proving true.

As someone in their mid-30s (is that old these days?) texting is just easier for simple things. If I want to see a movie with someone over the weekend, asking via text is just so much easier. It's not anything urgent and the person can respond at their leisure.

As far as buying a car, I think there are tons of people my age just sick of the games dealers play. I called, texted, and emailed tons of dealers looking for a BW at MSPR and most were incredibly shady about it and no one would give a straight answer. It was always "well the MSRP is $XXX,XXX, and if you want to make an appointment to come in in person we can discuss details." Sorry, I'm just looking for a simple answer. I finally found a salesman who was a straight shooter.

Years ago I arranged an out of state sale of my C63 where I flew down to Florida to pick it up and drive it back. Everything was arranged over the phone. I was young, excited, and apparently a little dumb and didn't get the exact price in writing, despite it being agreed to over the phone. When I got down there the sales documents had a price about $2,500 higher than what we agreed to. After some arguing they honored the original price, but it was the last time I ever gave a dealer the benefit of the doubt.

I would prefer buying a car online because it cuts out the dealer BS, not necessarily because I don't want to talk to anyone on the phone.

 

[savethemanual]

This !!!! I got call for allocation and they keep me on the wait for confirmation after I send a build 10k lower than they expected with the suede seats, no sunroof, silver calipers etc.

The caddi dealers attitude is laughable.

I mean there are still good dealers out there who will order exactly what you want for msrp without any hassle.
Cadillac south SF is one of them.

 

[almazing]

I'm an old-ish guy and I like the negotiation and challenge of buying a car. A lot of young kids are lacking face-to-face skills and seem to prefer to do everything online. I hate texting except to setup a phone call or in person meet-up. This phone app crap is resulting in very high levels of teen depression and unhappiness. Steve Jobs warned us about this a long time ago and now it's proving true.

I'm a young-ish guy(mid-30s) that has bought nearly a dozen cars in my adult life, and each purchase has been face to face with a salesman. I have great face to face and social skills. I never did enjoy the experience, even the 'good ones'. And it's not about the face to face aspect and lacking of social skills. It's about the literal amount of time needed to secure the deal, and the fact that the majority of dealers do not respect their customers' time. 'Back in the day', I would walk in to a dealership ready to buy a car out of the blue and I would need to essentially write off 4-6 hours of that day to deal with the dealership 'experience'. It sucks and I hated it. If it weren't for the great chip and car shortage, the modern dealership experience would still be the same.

Nowadays, I call or email dealers and tell them to draft me a purchase agreement AFTER we discuss the numbers over the phone. If those numbers aren't what I want to see or they just refuse to draft paperwork, then that dealer is off the list. And even when the deal is worked out over the phone or email, I'm still needing to spend a minimum of 2-3 hours at the dealer to finalize the purchase. Salespeople, you hooked me already. Let's get this paperwork signed so you can continue on with your day. It's frustrating. I have better things to do than hang out with people who see me as a walking bag of money.

And honestly, dealing with slimy salespeople is just plain tiring. I don't wanna be there. I just want the car. The dealership sales model is outdated. And while we were able to haggle lower pricing back in the day, it's not going to be like that going forward in to the future. Since are cars getting more and more expensive, demand is getting higher, and car makers can't make them fast enough. If the 'best deal' IS MSRP, then I would rather just pay the manufacturer directly, and skip the nonsense of glorified middlemen.

 

[ukcats12]

I'm a young-ish guy(mid-30s)

Best thing in your post. Thanks for confirming I'm still young-ish.

 

[raptor5244]

As someone in their mid-30s (is that old these days?) texting is just easier for simple things. If I want to see a movie with someone over the weekend, asking via text is just so much easier. It's not anything urgent and the person can respond at their leisure.

As far as buying a car, I think there are tons of people my age just sick of the games dealers play. I called, texted, and emailed tons of dealers looking for a BW at MSPR and most were incredibly shady about it and no one would give a straight answer. It was always "well the MSRP is $XXX,XXX, and if you want to make an appointment to come in in person we can discuss details." Sorry, I'm just looking for a simple answer. I finally found a salesman who was a straight shooter.

Years ago I arranged an out of state sale of my C63 where I flew down to Florida to pick it up and drive it back. Everything was arranged over the phone. I was young, excited, and apparently a little dumb and didn't get the exact price in writing, despite it being agreed to over the phone. When I got down there the sales documents had a price about $2,500 higher than what we agreed to. After some arguing they honored the original price, but it was the last time I ever gave a dealer the benefit of the doubt.

I would prefer buying a car online because it cuts out the dealer BS, not necessarily because I don't want to talk to anyone on the phone.

Spot on, I hope GM is listening because the more mature buyers that are used to spending all day haggling and actually even enjoy the process are few and far between now. The majority of people would rather go to the dentist than the car dealer. At least I am not seeing a tent full of salespeople anymore, waiting to swarm me the moment I drive on the lot. These dealers need to adapt or will be left behind.