EV Thoughts Thread: cause the old farts did their usual thing

[raptor5244]

And here in CA they are telling people not to charge their cars because we have an electrical shortage. Ya can’t make this shit up!

Yeah, only days after the announce they a future ban of ICE vehicles. Maybe they should let the engineers make these decisions, not the politicians.

 

[ClassaxV]

The plain facts are EVs are currently only suited for an Urban lifestyle, the infrastructure isn't in place to support them in mass (yet if ever) , they aren't green friendly ( battery and electricity production are environmentally unfriendly) , they are the perfect vehicles for planned obsolescence, and their adoption will severely injure a number of OEM and aftermarket industries.

If you live in a big state, or rural area, in a place where it gets extremely hot or cold, EVs in their current state of the art, simply don't work very well for you.

I read a comment early on in the thread where an engineer stated that BEVs were more efficient per unit of energy produced and that is irrefutably true. However that isn't how people use vehicles. To draw a medical analogy, just because something works under ideal lab conditions in a test tube does not mean it will be viable as a solution in an actual living being.

I bought a house 15 minutes from a race track for a reason. I enjoy trackdays. Not only are current BEVs unsuited for a full day of all out 6 sessions hot lapping on track, the actual municipal tie off to the utility doesn't support fast charging more than 4 of them at any one time, the duty cycle of max discharge and recharge RATEs severely shortens their life. This is in addition to the fact that they weigh a ton and go through consumable almost twice as fast, so brakes, and tires and fluids cost go way up. One can economically rebuild an ICE from the ground up and go 500K miles. BEVs not so much, once the battery capacity falls off (and it degrades over time whether driven or not) its more economical to replace. Don't get me started on BEV salvage and disposal challenges.

Lastly the utility and taxing authorities will soon push them to parity to operating cost as ICE vehicles by raising electricity rates due to higher demand and taxing all customers to pay for "infrastructure improvements. " Not to mention the fact that they will seek to recover the lost tax revenue from reduced gasoline sales to pay for road maintenance upon which the order of magnitude heavier BEVs add increased wear and fatigue .

I believe you need a blended long term approach. I'm not against BEVs, I simply do not see them as a viable long-term solution for my lifestyle or geography. I am inclined think a majority of Americans who don't live and work solely in a major metro would feel the same way.

 

[Big Mac]

The plain facts are EVs are currently only suited for an Urban lifestyle, the infrastructure isn't in place to support them in mass (yet if ever) , they aren't green friendly ( battery and electricity production are environmentally unfriendly) , they are the perfect vehicles for planned obsolescence, and their adoption will severely injure a number of OEM and aftermarket industries.

If you live in a big state, or rural area, in a place where it gets extremely hot or cold, EVs in their current state of the art, simply don't work very well for you.

I read a comment early on in the thread where an engineer stated that BEVs were more efficient per unit of energy produced and that is irrefutably true. However that isn't how people use vehicles. To draw a medical analogy, just because something works under ideal lab conditions in a test tube does not mean it will be viable as a solution in an actual living being.

I bought a house 15 minutes from a race track for a reason. I enjoy trackdays. Not only are current BEVs unsuited for a full day of all out 6 sessions hot lapping on track, the actual municipal tie off to the utility doesn't support fast charging more than 4 of them at any one time, the duty cycle of max discharge and recharge RATEs severely shortens their life. This is in addition to the fact that they weigh a ton and go through consumable almost twice as fast, so brakes, and tires and fluids cost go way up. One can economically rebuild an ICE from the ground up and go 500K miles. BEVs not so much, once the battery capacity falls off (and it degrades over time whether driven or not) its more economical to replace. Don't get me started on BEV salvage and disposal challenges.

Lastly the utility and taxing authorities will soon push them to parity to operating cost as ICE vehicles by raising electricity rates due to higher demand and taxing all customers to pay for "infrastructure improvements. " Not to mention the fact that they will seek to recover the lost tax revenue from reduced gasoline sales to pay for road maintenance upon which the order of magnitude heavier BEVs add increased wear and fatigue .

I believe you need a blended long term approach. I'm not against BEVs, I simply do not see them as a viable long-term solution for my lifestyle or geography. I am inclined think a majority of Americans who don't live and work solely in a major metro would feel the same way.

There are a lot of half truths in this. I live in the suburbs where it gets below zero and until the blackwing came out, I swore I'd never own a gasoline car as my primary ever again. My last EV was one of the worst from a battery standpoint (I pace) and in the freezing cold I'd still have plenty of range and plug it in twice a week instead of once a week.

Very few people are driving more that 150 miles a day. The once or twice a year that I had to, I'd drive my wife's car. Frankly, it was so convenient to not have to go to gas stations or get oil changes that I was considering trading my wife's car for an ev too and just renting a car for the rare exceptions.

What percentage of ICE vehicles do you think are being rebuild "economically" from the ground up? I'd bet less than 1 in 10,000.

 

[Throat Yogurt]

The plain facts are EVs are currently only suited for an Urban lifestyle, the infrastructure isn't in place to support them in mass (yet if ever) , they aren't green friendly ( battery and electricity production are environmentally unfriendly) , they are the perfect vehicles for planned obsolescence, and their adoption will severely injure a number of OEM and aftermarket industries.

If you live in a big state, or rural area, in a place where it gets extremely hot or cold, EVs in their current state of the art, simply don't work very well for you.

I read a comment early on in the thread where an engineer stated that BEVs were more efficient per unit of energy produced and that is irrefutably true. However that isn't how people use vehicles. To draw a medical analogy, just because something works under ideal lab conditions in a test tube does not mean it will be viable as a solution in an actual living being.

I bought a house 15 minutes from a race track for a reason. I enjoy trackdays. Not only are current BEVs unsuited for a full day of all out 6 sessions hot lapping on track, the actual municipal tie off to the utility doesn't support fast charging more than 4 of them at any one time, the duty cycle of max discharge and recharge RATEs severely shortens their life. This is in addition to the fact that they weigh a ton and go through consumable almost twice as fast, so brakes, and tires and fluids cost go way up. One can economically rebuild an ICE from the ground up and go 500K miles. BEVs not so much, once the battery capacity falls off (and it degrades over time whether driven or not) its more economical to replace. Don't get me started on BEV salvage and disposal challenges.

Lastly the utility and taxing authorities will soon push them to parity to operating cost as ICE vehicles by raising electricity rates due to higher demand and taxing all customers to pay for "infrastructure improvements. " Not to mention the fact that they will seek to recover the lost tax revenue from reduced gasoline sales to pay for road maintenance upon which the order of magnitude heavier BEVs add increased wear and fatigue .

I believe you need a blended long term approach. I'm not against BEVs, I simply do not see them as a viable long-term solution for my lifestyle or geography. I am inclined think a majority of Americans who don't live and work solely in a major metro would feel the same way.

I agree with you somewhat...the overall truth being that there are use cases for which EVs are better than ICE, and use cases for which EVs don't work at all. I am a big EV proponent, but I am also an engineer so I recognise that this technology is not ready (and may never be ready) to solve all of our automotive problems.

The unfortunate thing, as can be seen starkly in this thread, is that both EV proponents and EV haters tend to ignore the use case realities to support their boneheaded opinions. For example, the politicians in California mandating EVs while at the same time not recognising that EVs don't work for everyone and the electrical grid couldn't support them even if they did. EV haters (many in this thread) will point to a pickup that can't tow 400 miles or some other 1% use case as evidence that all EVs suck and are stupid.

The fact is that if you can charge an EV at home, and if you drive less than ~200 miles a day, and EV probably makes the most sense for you as a daily driver. 10s of millions of Americans fit into this category, with the caveat that many people occasionally go for longer drives/road trips. For those people, unfortunately the only EV that can currently reliably support that use is Tesla because of the supercharging network. As can be seen in Car & Driver's current EV issue, non-Tesla chargers are just not currently reliable or widespread enough to make frequent long trips in a non-Tesla viable.

 

[raptor5244]

I think it depends on your use case. I own both a Tesla Model 3 and 4BW. They are both great in their own ways.

If you can charge at home EVs are super convenient and have a low operation cost. The offer smooth, quiet, instant power and the tech is excellent. You get OTA software updates that improve the vehicle after the initial purchase. In the case of Tesla, you have a supercharger network that enables you to travel cross-country if you choose. EVs are not ideal yet when it comes to tracking however, many are surprised to learn that the Model 3 Performance has a Track Mode that Randy Pobst help tune. You actually have quite a bit of software control and the Track Mode has been improved to version 2 via an OTA software update. That kind of tech is really cool in EVs and the fact that it can be upgraded so easily after purchase is great.

That said, IMO, BEVs lack the personality and driving engagement I prefer from a performance car. I think this will be the biggest challenge as it relates to driving enthusiasts adopting and embracing performance BEVs. The instant torque delivery of an EV is incredible but the novelty eventually wears off and you are not left with much else. If you prefer a vehicle that can insulate you from the road and you enjoy the new tech, interiors, big screens, etc. you are going to love an EV. However, if you like to row your own gears, listen to the rise and fall of the RPM and exhaust note, prefer to brake all on your own vs. regen braking, etc. then we need to wait to see if auto manufacturers can figure out a way to inject some soul into performance BEVs.

 

[ClassaxV]

There are a lot of half truths in this. I live in the suburbs where it gets below zero and until the blackwing came out, I swore I'd never own a gasoline car as my primary ever again. My last EV was one of the worst from a battery standpoint (I pace) and in the freezing cold I'd still have plenty of range and plug it in twice a week instead of once a week.

Very few people are driving more that 150 miles a day. The once or twice a year that I had to, I'd drive my wife's car. Frankly, it was so convenient to not have to go to gas stations or get oil changes that I was considering trading my wife's car for an ev too and just renting a car for the rare exceptions.

What percentage of ICE vehicles do you think are being rebuild "economically" from the ground up? I'd bet less than 1 in 10,000.

The functionality of BVEs in extreme temperature is not the issue it's the accelerated reduction to their capacity that temperature swings cause.

You're still in the miles per day conversation when the devil is in the detail of discharge rate. People tow, drive spiritedly drive up and down hills ect. Range is a function of both where and how you drive.

I live outside Houston and commute 70 miles minimum but day trips to Austin , Dallas and San Antonio are routine. So 250+ miles in a day is a regular occurrence.

Here in Houston ERCOT is constantly asking people to reduce energy consumption to not crash the grid when it's too hot or too cold. SOME neighborhoods have brown outs just from AC usage. Light bills of $300 or more aren't unusual. Now add charging BEVs to that load.

Let's forgo mentioning how long people go without electricity after storms, in the gulf coast. Remember this is the state where 49 people froze to death when the power grid almost failed and rolling blackouts occurred during a freeze....

There are several million ICE vehicles on US roads that are 20 or more years old.
Spend time in Mexico or Brazil or Cuba and you'll see vehicles rebuilt from the 50s.

The US infrastructure isn't BEV ready and BVEs don't suit a lot of people's lifestyles.

Pretty sure both halves are completely true.

 

[Throat Yogurt]

The US infrastructure isn't BEV ready and BVEs don't suit a lot of people's lifestyles.

Much of the US infrastructure *IS* EV ready and EVs do suit a lot of people's lifestyles.

The takeaway is that we should continue to develop both EVs and electrical infrastructure until we can use most in the above sentence. The fact that there are areas or use cases for which EVs don't currently work is not a reason to abandon the technology. It *is* a reason not to mandate it, though.

 

[ArgentWing]

I had this exact same phenomenon with my 1966 GTO. Dudes were all over me. Honking on the highway, yelling and waving at me in traffic, running up to the car at stop lights. No chicks.

View attachment 11498

Same experience for me with my 68 Roadrunner. Men loved it and women absolutely hated it!

 

[Big Mac]

The functionality of BVEs in extreme temperature is not the issue it's the accelerated reduction to their capacity that temperature swings cause.

You're still in the miles per day conversation when the devil is in the detail of discharge rate. People tow, drive spiritedly drive up and down hills ect. Range is a function of both where and how you drive.

I live outside Houston and commute 70 miles minimum but day trips to Austin , Dallas and San Antonio are routine. So 250+ miles in a day is a regular occurrence.

Here in Houston ERCOT is constantly asking people to reduce energy consumption to not crash the grid when it's too hot or too cold. SOME neighborhoods have brown outs just from AC usage. Light bills of $300 or more aren't unusual. Now add charging BEVs to that load.

Let's forgo mentioning how long people go without electricity after storms, in the gulf coast. Remember this is the state where 49 people froze to death when the power grid almost failed and rolling blackouts occurred during a freeze....

There are several million ICE vehicles on US roads that are 20 or more years old.
Spend time in Mexico or Brazil or Cuba and you'll see vehicles rebuilt from the 50s.

The US infrastructure isn't BEV ready and BVEs don't suit a lot of people's lifestyles.

Pretty sure both halves are completely true.

It sounds like for you, an EV would not be a good primary vehicle.

The number of people regularly driving 250 miles a day is very low. For most people, an EV will be more convenient with less maintenance. Again, most people are not getting their ICE vehicle rebuilt. I personally would not choose a vehicle based on what a Cuban will do with it in 70 years.

 

[ClassaxV]

Much of the US infrastructure *IS* EV ready and EVs do suit a lot of people's lifestyles.

The takeaway is that we should continue to develop both EVs and electrical infrastructure until we can use most in the above sentence. The fact that there are areas or use cases for which EVs don't currently work is not a reason to abandon the technology. It *is* a reason not to mandate it, though.

Like I said I believe that there needs to be a balanced approach. I personally don't think I implied anything about the abandonment of the Technology, my comments are focused on the obstacles to be addressed in order to have them adopted widely as well as the case for cutting through the rosey rhetoric and the case for keeping ICEs in the mix.

 

[ClassaxV]

It sounds like for you, an EV would not be a good primary vehicle.

The number of people regularly driving 250 miles a day is very low. For most people, an EV will be more convenient with less maintenance. Again, most people are not getting their ICE vehicle rebuilt. I personally would not choose a vehicle based on what a Cuban will do with it in 70 years.

Exactly, doesn't work for everyone. I wouldn't go as far as to say few.

The point was ICEs can be repaired and maintained more accessibly than BEVs where the main point of failure is often 50% of the vehicles value.

There's a case to be made for and against both types.

 

[raptor5244]

Exactly, doesn't work for everyone. I wouldn't go as far as to say few.

The point was ICEs can be repaired and maintained more accessibly than BEVs where the main point of failure is often 50% of the vehicles value.

There's a case to be made for and against both types.

This is true to a certain extend but I would expect battery prices to drop over time as more EVs are released and battery production is scaled up. Keep in mind that all new EVs are mandated to have an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty. So, the major concerns over battery replacement/repair costs are for the used market for cars over 10 years old. In addition, these new battery architectures are designed such that you can replace individual battery cells so it is possible that you lose a few cells, replace them and still have a useable battery. Time will tell if this all works out but I think there is too much money and politics invested to turn back now.

I just saw the Chevy Equinox EV was revealed and will start at $30k for the 2024 model and get 250 miles of range. This is all most folks really need and it will sell like crazy to the non-enthusiast market.

The 2024 Chevy Equinox EV is priced to be everyone’s first electric vehicle

GM wants the new Equinox to be an "EV for everyone."

www.theverge.com

 

[ClassaxV]

This is true to a certain extend but I would expect battery prices to drop over time as more EVs are released and battery production is scaled up.

View attachment 12551

I keep hearing people say that, but lithium carbonate is up close 400% and relatively speaking we don't have very many BEVSs being sold yet, so demand is not yet what it will be when GM goes from 25K BEVs to 300k a year. Mind you every other maker will be looking to do the same thing.

The average age of vehicles in the US is roughly 11.9 years old with 160k miles.

We keep assuming that the majority of folks who own / need a vehicle have access to overnight or at home charging. Over 50 million people are renters in the US. So in a city like Houston where the average daily commute is north of 60 miles a day, not being able to charge at home starts to create challenges.

These are just challenges to fix. I sit on the Zoning & Planning Board of my little city, and I advocate for electrification infrastructure on every project we review. Not because I own, or plan to buy an EV, but because I want my city to be able to be built for the future. And that includes making it easier for the average person to operate their EVs as I rumble buy in my classic ICE.

 

[raptor5244]

I keep hearing people say that, but lithium carbonate is up close 400% and relatively speaking we don't have very many BEVSs being sold yet, so demand is not yet what it will be when GM goes from 25K BEVs to 300k a year. Mind you every other maker will be looking to do the same thing.

I agree that battery costs will remain high for a while but the higher battery costs are offset with the lower cost associated with manufacturing EVs. If you look at the GM Ultium platform it leverages the same "skateboard" architecture where they can just add or remove battery cells depending on the vehicle application. This is how GM will be able to sell an Equinox EV for magical $30k figure as it will probably share the platform as the Blazer, Lyriq, etc.

If you use Tesla as an example, they average north of 30% profit margin per vehicle, which is more than double what traditional manufacturers see. EVs are more simple to build, reduce the number of parts and suppliers required, no middleman (dealers) to feed. It is still early in the transition but as it gains steam you will see increased innovation as manufacturers compete.

GM better hope it works out since they are "all in" on BEVs.

 

[TFG]

Like I said I believe that their needs to be a balanced approach. I personally don't think I implied anything about abandonment of the Technology, my comments are focused on the obstacles to be addressed in order to have them adopted widely as well as the case for cutting through the rosey rhetoric and the case for keeping ICEs in the mix.

He prefers the strawman approach in this instance.

 

[Throat Yogurt]

He prefers the strawman approach in this instance.

Oh, This Fucking Guy again.

 

[PrimeTime]

I think it depends on your use case. I own both a Tesla Model 3 and 4BW. They are both great in their own ways.

If you can charge at home EVs are super convenient and have a low operation cost. The offer smooth, quiet, instant power and the tech is excellent. You get OTA software updates that improve the vehicle after the initial purchase. In the case of Tesla, you have a supercharger network that enables you to travel cross-country if you choose. EVs are not ideal yet when it comes to tracking however, many are surprised to learn that the Model 3 Performance has a Track Mode that Randy Pobst help tune. You actually have quite a bit of software control and the Track Mode has been improved to version 2 via an OTA software update. That kind of tech is really cool in EVs and the fact that it can be upgraded so easily after purchase is great.

View attachment 12542

That said, IMO, BEVs lack the personality and driving engagement I prefer from a performance car. I think this will be the biggest challenge as it relates to driving enthusiasts adopting and embracing performance BEVs. The instant torque delivery of an EV is incredible but the novelty eventually wears off and you are not left with much else. If you prefer a vehicle that can insulate you from the road and you enjoy the new tech, interiors, big screens, etc. you are going to love an EV. However, if you like to row your own gears, listen to the rise and fall of the RPM and exhaust note, prefer to brake all on your own vs. regen braking, etc. then we need to wait to see if auto manufacturers can figure out a way to inject some soul into performance BEVs.

Well said.

 

[Tall Steve]

I'm off the forum for 6 days and look what is posted, lol.........

 

[Throat Yogurt]

I'm off the forum for 6 days and look what is posted, lol.........

When the cat's away the mice will play!

 

[ClassaxV]

I'm off the forum for 6 days and look what is posted, lol.........

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