EV Thoughts Thread: cause the old farts did their usual thing

[Neveready]

No I'm saying I agree with you.

The EVs left the Bugatti for dead off the line because EVs have far superior traction management.

Also the video mentioned it's not a prepped surface.

I saw that video a while ago and didn't see the launch and I just looked at the numbers of 9.3 @15xmph. I forgot how ridiculous that launch was. It takes a $3Mil marvel of engineering or motorcycle to keep up with a $100k EV.

 

[Neveready]

This sums up the title of this thread.

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[CBH]

That is a great video. The Bugatti is screaming towards it as they approach the finish line, but the Plaid was so far ahead off the line it was amazing.

In my post I admit I would have to be ready - already in 3rd gear - to give an EV any kind of chase.

It is silly easy to make an EV go fast. My point was that's not the only way possible to make them. There's no doubt that with far less power, they would need far less juice and weight (as many others pointed out), and be very slow and way more economical.

But Tesla had to change people's minds about EVs - they had to be BETTER than ICE to encourage people to spend that much $$$ and take a risk.

And so the herd follows with even faster, heavier EVs. Inherent in what is coming to market is the belief that more efficient, lighter and much slower EVs would not sell. I have always agreed with what so many have pointed out - hardly anybody needs more than 100 mile per day. So keep your truck and get an EV for commuting. But Tesla didn't do that...........so again, the herd follows.

Big Auto is still about making a buck - not saving the whales.............which I'm fine with. I just wish they'd stop lying about it and try to make a buck off the EV craze while still selling good ol' ICE to those who want it.

I think they're afraid if they don't lobby for gov't mandates, it may all implode. But companies like GM are still fully geared up to keep making ICE for the foreseeable future, so it appears better positioned than many.

Dodge is confusingly going cold turkey by killing the hemi after this year. Jaguar was barely hanging on before attempting to go full EV. Many other niche sports car brands are going full EV to what I expect will be a quick demise.

EV is the antithesis of everything Lotus was founded on. How could anyone want an EV Lotus ? The only ones who even know what Lotus is (was ?) wouldn't think about it. And how does it think it'll overcome the loads of EV competition ?

 

[DAC17]

What's your point, this race is a prepped surface.

And the $3 million Bugatti is not remotely in the same class as a model S plaid.

I'm getting a little tired of the "my EV is faster than your whatever"... We all know EV's are generally faster in a drag race. How much of your driving time is spent doing that?

Rant off.

 

[565565]

It's a shame that with everything being political these days, that even the car world is being weaponized for appealing to your base and getting reelected. That is true for both sides.

However I do think that at this point the tipping point has come for EVs to eventually dominate the market.

The environmental part of it is a nice excuse, but the real reason that automakers are so focused on EVs is because they've got mainstream consumers excited about buying and owning cars again.

It happened to Japan and it happened to the US, but in recent decades the car culture became stagnant. In the past, consumers, especially young ones were excited about their cars. Being proud of the your ride was the norm. The family vehicle was a cherished thing. In recent years most cars have become appliances. Most are purchased (or more commonly leased) in some grey scale color, generally all look similar and perform similarly. My wife once got into the wrong compact grey SUV thinking it was hers. People were far more interested in their newest smart phone or social media than the new generation of CRV or Rav4 that everyone drove. Car enthusiasts still existed but became we became the small minority of auto buyers.

The new wave of EVs blew things open. Now you got 100k family sedans that run 150+ mph in the quarter mile and had rear facing jump seats in the cargo hold. You have space ship looking cars with novel storage spaces and passenger space beyond what you'd expect. You have electric trucks that crab walk and tank turn (though rivian couldn't really make it work) and do 60mph in 3 seconds flat. And for the first time in decades, you had brand new start up auto manufacturers deliver cars to mainstream consumers. Look at a Ioniq 5 and look at a Santa Fe, or look at a Hummer EV and look at a Sierra, or look at a BMW iX and look at a X5. The EVs brought not just an electric powertrain, but a sense of the future and a sense of outragessness that truthfully hasn't been seen in car design since the 1950s and 60s.

I think that EVs will do to ICEs what cassette players did to vinyl, and what flat panel LCD TVs did to CRTs. The sound and image quality may actually be superior in the legacy format, but the convenience and wow factor of the new technology will win out for consumers.

Flat panel TVs took over rapidly despite worse image quality because of two reasons. Consumers wanted to buy them and manufacturers wanted to make them. Those same factors are here in the car world. Just like vinyl will still have a place in the music world for hard-core enthusiasts, ICE enthusiast cars won't ever totally go away, however the majority of cars for the mainstream will be EVs.

As a car enthusiast I am excited for the future, but I recognize that this is the likely the last hurrah for much of the internal combustion world. I mean it's no secret that many of us bought a blackwing because GM said its going to be the last gas powered Blackwing. The next Bugatti Chiron level car will be electric. The new M cars will be electric.

I think of this clip when I walk up to the Blackwing

I look forward to the electric future. The performance will be insane and car design will change by leaps and bounds compared to the last few decades of incremental changes. But I am going to hang onto my Tyrannosaurs.

 

[rubberduck]

I see your point and I was pretty excited when I got my Dualit toaster. If you’re using a cheap Walmart toaster I guarantee this toaster will have you thinking about bread in a whole different light. This is not a joke, I’m serious.

 

[Berserker]

This sums up the title of this thread.

That is beautiful.

Given how often mid-engine cars burn to the ground they should ban all C8 Corvettes.

If, you know, safety is what they are really concerned about ...

 

[jbawden]

The EVs left the Bugatti for dead off the line because EVs have far superior traction management.

They accelerate at a faster rate because max torque happens at the first rotation of the electric motor, effectively zero rpm. It just so happens the software is good at metering power vs traction.

 

[Tall Steve]

I see your point and I was pretty excited when I got my Dualit toaster. If you’re using a cheap Walmart toaster I guarantee this toaster will have you thinking about bread in a whole different light. This is not a joke, I’m serious.

Sir, I'm getting my wife one of those...

 

[rubberduck]

Sir, I'm getting my wife one of those...

Have you used one before? They are a real game changer.

 

[Neveready]

Sir, I'm getting my wife one of those...

It comes in twice as many colors as a Tesla

 

[rubberduck]

It comes in twice as many colors as a Tesla

And I guarantee it will impress your friends more. Plus it’s not made in China.

 

[raptor5244]

I'm getting a little tired of the "my EV is faster than your whatever"... We all know EV's are generally faster in a drag race. How much of your driving time is spent doing that?

Rant off.

I agree but the issue I have is that most ICE manufacturers charge big money for their performance models. Take the 4BW for example, they seem to average in the low $70k range and go as high as $80-85k but you can now get Tesla Model 3 Performance for $52,990 - $7500 tax credit ($45,490) if you qualify. You don't even need to go to the Performance trim to realize similar performance. Around town the instant torque is very satisfying and the low CG from the battery makes these cars handle pretty well.

I am speaking from experience since I have owned a Tesla M3P, and still own a 4BW and Model 3 SR+. I traded the M3P because I prefer a more engaging driving experience with the Tremec M6 in the 4BW, but if it wasn't for that the M3P does just about everything better if I am being honest.

So my issue is why should I spend $70k+ for a performance ICE vehicle if a mid range EV can wipe the floor with me without even trying? For most, it is the driving engagement of a manual transmission and or the engine/exhaust noise. If you don't care about either of those things then you are just left with styling. From a performance perspective the 4BW should be more in the $50k range. The Tesla includes a 4 year/50k mile bumper to bumper and 120k/8 year warranty on the powertrain. For example, if I was deciding between a 4BW with an A10 vs. a Tesla M3P, I would pick the Tesla every time. $20-27k cheaper, better tech, better performance, cheaper to operate, etc.

 

[raptor5244]

Curious why range is so important to you? Can you charge at home? Do you drive cross country frequently?

Clearly I'm not the EV makers intended audience. But a lightweight EV that is fun to drive and has 50 or 100 mile range makes a lot of sense to me. I can charge at home and a 40 mile range would cover my needs 95% of the time. If I need to travel a longer distance, I have plenty of ICE cars and hybrids in the stable to choose from. The 1,000lbs of battery and $10,000s of dollars for a 400 mile range in an EV makes NO sense to me. I don't want the weight, handling penalty, acceleration penalty, tire wear, initial purchase cost, eventual replacement cost, etc of a large battery - in short, it seems to me, large range in an EV makes every single thing about them worse. If range is critical, get an ICE or hybrid - extra range in one of those only adds a few 10s of pounds of fuel and essentially has no downsides.

Personally, I think the optimal solution today, if you want an EV and need to drive long distances, is:
- to have a second vehicle in the stable (maybe a suburban or pickup if you regularly need to haul plywood or dirt bikes or tow a trailer, etc) or,
- if you really only have room for 1 car and must have an EV, get a plug-in hybrid that will run on electricity 99% of the time but still let you do those cross country trips when you need to. Or,
- buy my mythical short-range EV and rent an ICE or hybrid for that annual cross county trip. The $10,000 battery cost savings of this short-range EV vs one with a 400 mile range would pay for a whole lot of rental cars and fuel. And, one day, when you or the next owner need to replace that battery the bill will be $3K instead of $15K.

Perhaps in 20 years things will be different, but today, in any of my propoesed scenarios that cross country trip that actually requires long range is going to be a whole lot faster and less nerve-wracking than with an EV. And it will allow you to venture off the major roads and into the empty parts of the country if you so desire

Agreed. I think a Tesla Model 2 Performance trim would be a hoot. A lighter hot hatch EV with a smaller battery would make it a rocket. Something like this for $25-30k would be another game changer.

 

[Deneed4spd]

One day, they are going to make batteries 1/2 the weight of current batteries. At that point, EVs will not only be faster straight line, but will also handle better in the turns. With Toyota or was it Honda working in a manual function for EVs where u have to shift, and it even mimics the throttle loss of clutch engagement. Only thing that will separate ice to ev would be the noise and us old farts dreaming about ice engines. Our kids and our grandkids won’t give 2 cents to how an engine sounds when a EV dusts an ice in all aspects.

 

[rubberduck]

One day, they are going to make batteries 1/2 the weight of current batteries. At that point, EVs will not only be faster straight line, but will also handle better in the turns. With Toyota or was it Honda working in a manual function for EVs where u have to shift, and it even mimics the throttle loss of clutch engagement. Only thing that will separate ice to ev would be the noise and us old farts dreaming about ice engines. Our kids and our grandkids won’t give 2 cents to how an engine sounds when a EV dusts an ice in all aspects.

Before unleaded gas and cats I also enjoyed the great smell of gasoline coming from the tailpipe. About the best I get now in going to an airshow and breathing in the jet exhaust.

 

[Dmkp621]

For most, it is the driving engagement of a manual transmission and or the engine/exhaust noise. If you don't care about either of those things then you are just left with styling.

All good points above. But the remaining differentiator is not just styling - I want to drive from San Diego to Arizona, or to the Bay Area, or wherever, and not have to worry about how and where I'm going to charge up, not to mention how long that will take. I guess the media likes to call this "range anxiety" but to me it is just the practicality of having one car that can do all of those things and be a great performer at the same time. I agree that BEVs are probably great for 95% of driving use cases but not all use cases.

 

[CBH]

You gotta be kidding ? The Tesla Model S is hands down one of the best looking sedans ever made. Hard to find people that do not like the way it looks.

 

[Dmkp621]

The EV Transition Explained

The challenges posed by the transition from ICE vehicles to EVs at scale are significantly larger in scope and more complex than the policy makers appreciate. The systems engineering task alone is enormous, with countless interdependencies that are outside policy makers' control.

spectrum.ieee.org

Above is something like a 13 part series (from the trade magazine of the professionals' that have the most to gain from the EV transition - electrical engineers). It's a couple of hours of reading. There is a lot to digest here, and, depending on your bias, you'll probably reach a different conclusion.

Great article! Maybe I'm biased because I've been an IEEE member since college. I've read the first half of it. Basically one sentence on the first page sums it up for me:

Indeed, the challenges posed by the transition from ICE vehicles to EVs at scale are significantly larger in scope and more complex than the policymakers setting the regulatory timeline appreciate.​

Other quotes worth repeating:

If the nitty gritty but hard-to-solve issues are glossed over or ignored, or if EV expectations are hyped beyond the market’s capability to deliver, no one should be surprised by a backlash against EVs, making the transition more difficult.​

Here's another:

“We cannot foresee all the details needed to make the EV transition successful,” University of Michigan professor emeritus John Leslie King says. “While there’s a reason to believe we will get there, there’s less reason to believe we know the way. It is going to be hard.”​

 

[Tall Steve]

Have you used one before? They are a real game changer.

I have never used one but my wife does like her toast...