CT4-V Disappointed after lengthy Test drive

[Roadhawk]

I agree with most all comments here on this thread WRT the BW cars and with the other cars mentioned (as far as I know them....not having driven most...but I get the idea). In many ways the favorite car for driving pleasure I have ever owned was my supercharged 1st gen MR2. Not nearly as fast as other cars I've owned but plenty quick....but the nimblness just made all driving situations great.

While the 4 BW will never quite have that character its plenty good in its own right and is engaging to drive. I agree that the engine (with its sound deadening) could be improved - but performance wise its no slouch.

Several months ago I installed the ported throttle body and larger MAF from Tapout and its made a significant difference in power at WOT. If Tapout is to be believed and as my butt dyno confirms I'm getting approx 90 HP boost (and more torque as well) and all without any tuning required. Its a very worthy upgrade IMO that really makes the car quite a bit more beastly when it matters and otherwise keeps it just as stock all other times.

 

[Orange Whip]

I agree with most all comments here on this thread WRT the BW cars and with the other cars mentioned (as far as I know them....not having driven most...but I get the idea). In many ways the favorite car for driving pleasure I have ever owned was my supercharged 1st gen MR2. Not nearly as fast as other cars I've owned but plenty quick....but the nimblness just made all driving situations great.

While the 4 BW will never quite have that character its plenty good in its own right and is engaging to drive. I agree that the engine (with its sound deadening) could be improved - but performance wise its no slouch.

Several months ago I installed the ported throttle body and larger MAF from Tapout and its made a significant difference in power at WOT. If Tapout is to be believed and as my butt dyno confirms I'm getting approx 90 HP boost (and more torque as well) and all without any tuning required. Its a very worthy upgrade IMO that really makes the car quite a bit more beastly when it matters and otherwise keeps it just as stock all other times.

Link to the MAF on Tapout's site? I searched, and I'm sure I'm looking right at it, but I don't see it listed.

 

[Roadhawk]

Link to the MAF on Tapout's site? I searched, and I'm sure I'm looking right at it, but I don't see it listed.

Here you go

Tapout Tuning CT4-V Blackwing Carbon Fiber Airbox Lid - Tapout Tuning

www.tapouttuning.com

 

[Orange Whip]

Here you go

Tapout Tuning CT4-V Blackwing Carbon Fiber Airbox Lid - Tapout Tuning

www.tapouttuning.com

Ah, thanks. Did you get the OS MAF tubes and green filter as well?

 

[G.Newt]

@jeffcole I understand your sentiments. I also came from BMW world. In regards to an F87 M2C, that thing has a muscle car chassis, whereas the Alpha is more European. I know, sounds crazy and backwards. F chassis M cars in general were slide monsters lol. Made for fun shenanigans but even a lowly Camaro SS 1LE has a bit more sophisticated-feeling setup. So yeah it's not going to feel as visceral or raw. You point it and the car goes without much drama. I do find myself sliding around a bit and giggling when I get the chance. But it's all very controlled.

And I agree the LF4 is nothing special. It's adequate. Sounds better than an S55/S58, makes 400-ish whp but is surprisingly smooth and refined for a V6. It's down 50-100whp compared to an S58, makes the same as an S55, but it's strapped to 3850-3950 lbs.

The car is really all about the chassis and less about the engine. And quite frankly, if I was getting an auto, I'd be in a G80 xDrive or waiting for an G87 M2 xDrive. The manual sold me on the car but it's not perfect for sure.

 

[Roadhawk]

Ah, thanks. Did you get the OS MAF tubes and green filter as well?

OS - but didn't really see any benefit to the green filters vs potential hassle. The OS MAF (looks great) and ported throttle body added significantly to acceleration and torque feel during acceleration....highly recommended. And after a freak CEL over the summer haven't had another even with the recent cold...

 

[Roadhawk]

The car is really all about the chassis and less about the engine. And quite frankly, if I was getting an auto, I'd be in a G80 xDrive or waiting for an G87 M2 xDrive. The manual sold me on the car but it's not perfect for sure.

The chassis of the 4 BW is just out of this world good. I sometimes wonder if I should have gotten an M2 comp...and I can see it as being more "fun" in some respects....but I think the 4 BW is an all around better car and certainly as a daily driver. If I were going to settle on an auto (unwilling) I would probably already have been in an Audi RS3. For a variety of reasons I'm glad to be driving a 4 BW. I think the engine really gets short shifted....is it as special as the LT4....certainly not....or even as good as an S55 or 58...probably not. But its a real performer in its own right and just delivers.

 

[MookdocOE]

The chassis of the 4 BW is just out of this world good. I sometimes wonder if I should have gotten an M2 comp...and I can see it as being more "fun" in some respects....but I think the 4 BW is an all around better car and certainly as a daily driver. If I were going to settle on an auto (unwilling) I would probably already have been in an Audi RS3. For a variety of reasons I'm glad to be driving a 4 BW. I think the engine really gets short shifted....is it as special as the LT4....certainly not....or even as good as an S55 or 58...probably not. But its a real performer in its own right and just delivers.

I think your correct and one snafu with that BMW/Audi engine and man your down serious cash....that's a problem!

 

[piranha971]

I agree with most all comments here on this thread WRT the BW cars and with the other cars mentioned (as far as I know them....not having driven most...but I get the idea). In many ways the favorite car for driving pleasure I have ever owned was my supercharged 1st gen MR2. Not nearly as fast as other cars I've owned but plenty quick....but the nimblness just made all driving situations great.

While the 4 BW will never quite have that character its plenty good in its own right and is engaging to drive. I agree that the engine (with its sound deadening) could be improved - but performance wise its no slouch.

Several months ago I installed the ported throttle body and larger MAF from Tapout and its made a significant difference in power at WOT. If Tapout is to be believed and as my butt dyno confirms I'm getting approx 90 HP boost (and more torque as well) and all without any tuning required. Its a very worthy upgrade IMO that really makes the car quite a bit more beastly when it matters and otherwise keeps it just as stock all other times.

You missunderstood something. Tapout doesn't claim 90hp gain from that throttle body. That would be radicultous. They claim 10-15hp. Its been long understood in the ATS-V community that these throttle bodies don't see any gains. In regards to gains without tunning, that is a pipe dream. There are no gains without tunning. The ECU controls torque output. Unless the target is changed through tunning, no aftermarket parts is going to show any additional power.

 

[Roadhawk]

You missunderstood something. Tapout doesn't claim 90hp gain from that throttle body. That would be radicultous. They claim 10-15hp. Its been long understood in the ATS-V community that these throttle bodies don't see any gains. In regards to gains without tunning, that is a pipe dream. There are no gains without tunning. The ECU controls torque output. Unless the target is changed through tunning, no aftermarket parts is going to show any additional power.

You are correct in a sense - the throttle body provides 10-15 hp. However you are also incorrect - The real gain is the larger airflow intake/MAF. It achieves this through some very cool trickery - without any tuning. I'll just refer you to Tapouts site for the explanation (link provided in a prior post). believe me the gains are real...with a quite noticeable performance boost. My conservative estimate is at least 90 hp gain and its possible its even a bit more.

 

[BimmerFan]

I am surprised you bought the Supra after not enjoying the M2. Not sure that makes a lot of sense to me as it is an extremely similar car. I hated the windshield in that car, I couldnt get over how small it was. And the suspension is the same, with a slightly better bmw shifter.

Well, you know what they say about opinions. I don't think the Supra and M2 are similar, they are on different platforms, one is a two seater, the other is a 3 series that was left in the dryer for too long.* The windshield is big enough, but you are very close to it, and also to the rear view mirror and some people don't like that. My understanding is that the front suspension has the same geometry but the bushings and shocks and springs are all tuned differently. As is the engine management and steering and ... well, it's enough for me.

* - From a long-ago Car & Driver review of the 2 series.

 

[piranha971]

You are correct in a sense - the throttle body provides 10-15 hp. However you are also incorrect - The real gain is the larger airflow intake/MAF. It achieves this through some very cool trickery - without any tuning. I'll just refer you to Tapouts site for the explanation (link provided in a prior post). believe me the gains are real...with a quite noticeable performance boost. My conservative estimate is at least 90 hp gain and its possible its even a bit more.

Sorry, but if you think you gained 90hp from a throttle body without turning, you must be new to mods. With tuning, pretty much 100% of any gains, will come from the tuning and not from the throttle body.

 

[Dirkbg]

Sorry, but if you think you gained 90hp from a throttle body without turning, you must be new to mods. With tuning, pretty much 100% of any gains, will come from the tuning and not from the throttle body.

He didn't say and is not saying the throttle body is making 90 hp. The oversized Tapout intake/MAF is doing that. Read the link he gave previously as Tapout explains in detail how it works. The ported throttle body probably adds a few more HP but the intake is doing almost all the gains.

Several months ago I installed the ported throttle body and larger MAF from Tapout

 

[bl4ck_wng]

Sorry, but if you think you gained 90hp from a throttle body without turning, you must be new to mods. With tuning, pretty much 100% of any gains, will come from the tuning and not from the throttle body.

Tapout has some dyno charts on their site for both a10 and m6 -- from my understanding the oversized lid tells the ECM to command more boost than OEM. This solution is not a traditional intake and TB combo, there is some sort of fancy sensor "trickery" going on as well.

That is how they extract an unusual amount of power for just an intake lid plus ported TB (or atleast my cave man understanding of how they do it)

 

[piranha971]

He didn't say and is not saying the throttle body is making 90 hp. The oversized Tapout intake/MAF is doing that. Read the link he gave previously as Tapout explains in detail how it works. The ported throttle body probably adds a few more HP but the intake is doing almost all the gains.

My appologies to Roadhawk for missreading the post.
Spoofing the ECU can work to extract more power, but probably isn't the best idea of long term reliable operation. But that's a different discussion.

 

[Roadhawk]

My appologies to Roadhawk for missreading the post.
Spoofing the ECU can work to extract more power, but probably isn't the best idea of long term reliable operation. But that's a different discussion.

We'll have to see...but its not exceeding any engine or turbo parameters that even a basic tune would take advantage of so I don't see the problem and I'm not at all worried. At some point I may get a tune as well as other stuff - DPs, exhaust and perhaps larger turbos....but thats probably a few years down the road...

 

[Roadhawk]

Sorry, but if you think you gained 90hp from a throttle body without turning, you must be new to mods. With tuning, pretty much 100% of any gains, will come from the tuning and not from the throttle body.

BTW I'm not new to mods....check my list below in my posts. While my Audi was never reliable (not necessarily due to mods) my GTI is making almost double factory HP & torque and its been very reliable for the most part. I pushed both cars really hard often....more so then I commonly do with the BW....but thats more due to spending more time in them without the wife in the car.

 

[jbawden]

My appologies to Roadhawk for missreading the post.
Spoofing the ECU can work to extract more power, but probably isn't the best idea of long term reliable operation. But that's a different discussion.

Maybe you're not familiar with the newer Global B platform? These mods are not spoofing anything, these cars have wideband o2 sensors and with these mods the fuel curves are still safe. GM gave the parameters a lot of leash before setting a MIL.

 

[quikag]

Hey Jeff, we have a similar car background. I've had a ton of cars the past several years from the BRZ, Corolla GR, new Type S Integra, then on the other end an Escalade V, C6 ZR1, Ford Lightning, TRX, C8 Z51, Model S Plaid (new '24 I just got), etc. I've also driven the 4BW predecessor in anger on the track and autocross. I also own a 5BW six-speed.

As far as nimble sedans go, the 4BW is about as good as it gets. Yes, the LF4 engine isn't a world beater, but it gets the job done. The 5BW doesn't feel as nimble, but that LT4 is a monster and the 5BW can still dance when the road gets twisty. It doesn't feel nimble, but still very competent and fast. Think Chris Farley (RIP!) doing cartwheels. As long as you know it's a 4k lb sedan, it kicks a**.

Best bet is to keep your Miata (or some other light, fun, nimble car) and then get a 4 or 5BW for all your other drives where you don't need absolute flickability. Best of both worlds.

 

[DCSEA]

Mentioned already but yeah nothing too special about 4v blackwing engine, there are a lot of other twin Turbo v6 cars out there and this one is also designed to have generate linear power.

I know you referenced Thomas's thought on buying one and it's important to note he drove that car on a track is a bit of a track rat. That scenario is where this car shines despite the weight. While it's better that a 5 in terms of actually having fun on the street, it's still hard to get the best out of this car on most routes (I'm biased here as I live in a city).

Put differently I don't get the enjoyment of just mashing the throttle and doing pulls on the street because that's not what this car is for but really enjoy this while carving up canyons or something similar.