CT4-V Disappointed after lengthy Test drive

[jeffcole]

Hello Blackwingers, I come in peace I promise!

For a little background on myself, I’ve owned 10-15 cars over the last 10 years, too embarrassed to count. Miata’s, wrx, n55 m2, Supra, model 3, model s plaid, Audi S3, 987 boxster S, 718 boxster GTS, GR Corolla. I’ve test drove a shit load of cars. I own the model S plaid, 987 and Miata now. I’m looking to get rid of the plaid, and I’m selling my 987. And honestly I have kind of exhausted my options in cars now. So I narrowed my final search for perfection to the blackwing, or a M2 competition because that’s the one car I miss out of the bunch. Now my favorite cars I have ever driven is the Miata and the Lotus Elise. Pretty much everything else is pretty meh to me. But I heard the blackwing came close.

So today I test drove a 2023 IMSA edition CT4 blackwing. This is actually the 2nd time I’ve test driven one, but this time I was alone and there was no traffic. First let me start off with, I don’t love the looks of the exterior, but I think it’s pretty good. The interior I like a lot. The seats, the older separated screen from the dash (looking at you new bmw). The buttons, the steering wheel. The clutch, the shifter, the brakes, were all good. The one thing is I didn’t FEEL too much in the car which I didn’t expect. Didn’t feel that connected to it like I do in the Miata, or Elise, or even the M2 competition. The m2 feels more raw and fun and I can throw it around. That was my first huge negative. But I think a huge reason on why that was the case, was the fucking engine. What a let down that thing is. That’s the weakest feeling 470 horsepower of all time. The m2 competition feels soooo much faster. The low end torque is really lacking. I don’t care what the spec sheet say or what the times actually are. I guess it mainly has to do with the weight and size of the blackwing. Objectively, it is a great car. Manual, steering, breaking, handling all felt good, and especially good for a sedan. Although I feel like my Audi s3 and wrx were both good in the handling department. So I definitely understand why you would buy one, and I’d buy one over a new M3. Anyway, I’m a bit surprised by my revelation due to all the reviews being so hyperbolic on the cars perfection. I have heard some reviewers say the engine isn’t special. But I really think they downplay it and it kinda ruins the car for me. I think the ct5v would be worth the upgrade. I would love to try the difference. Was my test drive too short or does anyone else share the same sentiment?

 

[Champale]

Something doesn't seem right. I own a 5BW 6sp and have driven a 4BW 6sp and the 4BW blew me away with how precise and sharp it was and had plenty of power. Yes, I enjoy spinning the tires on my 5BW at 90 in 3rd but the 4BW felt superb and like a pointier, sharper version of the 5. For reference, I own a 2020 GT350R and 2017 Evora 400 and drive them like there is no tomorrow and was fastest in my 2 day class at Spring Mountain so am not a total slowpoke. I have contemplated getting rid of the Evora for a 4BW that's how great it was.

 

[FI Fiend]

Disagree on the lack of feel, but agree on the engine. Although it is a more special engine it just didn't ever feel that way to me- it doesnt really reward revving and sounds decent at best (in fairness I think it sounds better than the m2).

So for me the engine robbed it of some of the visceral experience

 

[Yalferd]

I like my car, but agree on the engine. It's not necessarily underwhelming, but I expected more. I came from a slower car, but i'm never blown away. I'm waiting for my next track day to do some experimentation with different modes.

Oh, and i've got an automatic, so that's part of the issue likely too.

 

[jbawden]

The 5BW shares it's family name, but its has a different personality and is worth investigating. There are nicer interiors and more handsome exteriors, but this manual, rear drive, supercharged V8 sedan is special from behind the wheel. However, if you're into light and flickable, I would not describe the 5BW as such.

It could just be that the Blackwing family isn't for you, so there is that.

 

[savethemanual]

Are you comparing it with a miata or the m2 comp? Lets get that out of the way. This is still a 3800 lb 4 door car, its not going to feel as fun as a 2300 lb 2 seater.

Now onto the m2 competition. I am presuming you are talking about the F87. What it seems like you want it twitchy and tail happy, if you adjust the PTM to race/sport you might get there but the ct4 blackwing is never as tail happy as the old m2 competition. The new m2 is also not as tail happy as the m2 comp. Also the engine is the least special part of the blackwing but I don't rate it worse than the m2 competition(S55 i.e.) Its definitely inferior to the S58 but makes it up in other areas.

PS- As for the CT5, based on what you are listing as criterion and comparables(m2 and miata) the CT5 is going to feel even less chuckable. It will solve the engine complaint but not your other issues.

Source- Turo'd a F87 for a week before settling on the blackwing. Now sold the CT4 blackwing and own a ND3 miata.

 

[seattlecubes]

The 4BW is geared much taller than any 6-cyl BMW M-Car, (190MPH) so that might be why it feels sleepy compared to them at the same speed.

 

[Roadhawk]

Jeffcole - as an owner and driver of a CT 4 V BW I somewhat agree with you...but mostly I disagree. Most of my experience (and joy) has come from small, nimble but fairly fast cars - a few which have been modded to be torque monsters. I often feel that the CT 4 V BW is slow - at least it is perceptively slow as its power is very linear vs a slam in the back. That being said its quicker then it might seem (or feel)...and its torque is certainly there.

WRT to precision handling - vs smaller and more nimble cars....sure its not a lightweight and to me this somewhat distracts....but I also think it handles the weight very well - the steering is precise and its a very maneuverable car (for what it is). Its never going to be an Elise or even a Miata....entirely different animals. But it is tight and the ride and handling are really outstanding.

Just driving around...even a bit quickly....I often feel underwhelmed....but when you really push this car it comes alive. I've never driven an M2 comp...but it has always been a desirable car for me based on what I think it is and the experience it would entail. In many ways I can see it being more exciting and having a smaller footprint than the 4 BW...but I can't see it as quicker or more capable...not at the limit. This is truly a great and rewarding car. Sometimes just driving around normally i don't feel it so much (but its still a very nice drive)....but when I push it here and there it always brings a smile to my face and it always feels very capable and gives me great confidence as a driver. I always have and have had nice drivers performance cars that excel in many ways. There is no question this is the best all around performance car I've ever had and possibly ever driven (at least for what it is....a somewhat luxury sedan)...

PS - I think the engine in this car is very sweet. Could it have a bit more character? Sure...but its really quite good and performs very well....it delivers IMO.

 

[668LT4]

The 5BW shares it's family name, but its has a different personality and is worth investigating. There are nicer interiors and more handsome exteriors, but this manual, rear drive, supercharged V8 sedan is special from behind the wheel. However, if you're into light and flickable, I would not describe the 5BW as such.

It could just be that the Blackwing family isn't for you, so there is that.

Could not agree more with all your remarks.

I have owned both Blackwings in manual. There is nothing bad to say about the 4. But I agree with others, and posted 2 years ago, that the motor while acceptable is not overly exciting.

5 Blackwing is an entirely different machine that produces very different feelings behind the wheel. Speed measurements compared to the 4 are not all that different, but wow, does it feel different. I think the 4 Blackwing is a tremendous do-it-all sports sedan at a fair price. But the wow factor lives in the 5.

 

[Roadhawk]

Could not agree more with all your remarks.

I have owned both Blackwings in manual. There is nothing bad to say about the 4. But I agree with others, and posted 2 years ago, that the motor while acceptable is not overly exciting.

5 Blackwing is an entirely different machine that produces very different feelings behind the wheel. Speed measurements compared to the 4 are not all that different, but wow, does it feel different. I think the 4 Blackwing is a tremendous do-it-all sports sedan at a fair price. But the wow factor lives in the 5.

I think the 5 is a truly great car and I would love the heck out of driving it (and fully see why it is more special etc)....however my preference is for the 4 - even considering its shortcomings in performance and visceral feel....can't argue the supercharged V8 is a beast. But for me....I prefer the 4...as I have a preference for small and nimble. The 5 is just too large and heavy a car for me....the 4 is a bit larger and certainly heavier then I would like. But the 4 is nimble enough and checks all the performance requirements....I don't need the extra that the 5 gives you.. The tradeoffs - at least for me - favor the 4.

 

[dinkman]

i sold mine 3 months later because the engine was kind of underwhelming too (putting around and wot), youre not alone in thinking that. just have to take car reviews with a grain of salt

 

[conipc]

To compare either BW to light and even 2door cars is truly impossible. Indeed, my 5 is a whole different beast from my 4, but neither are my 911 or 356 or 2002tii. Never expected them to be. However, if your 4 is out of warranty plenty more power is certainly available in the aftermarket. So too are handling additions to make it more edgy. But it's never going to be a Lotus. Apples to apples somewhere else.

 

[jeffcole]

I was not comparing the 4 to the Miata or a Lotus. I was simply stating that and and the Elise is my favorite car to drive, to highlight what is important to me in cars. Clearly I should have left that out because you guys are hung up on it haha I also own a boat (model s plaid) which is what I'm replacing it with.

I'm really only comparing it to the F87 because quite frankly theres not many direct competitors. Its the new and old m2, m3, 4 blackwing, integra type S kind of, in that 55-70k range sports car/sedan with a manual. The F87 and 4 blackwing both have cramped back seats, and are within 250 pounds of each other. So in my mind, they are 100% competitors. I have seen people going from F87's to blackwings on this forum and reddit when doing research. Thomas from Throttle House also made a comment that he would seriously consider getting rid of his M2 for a new blackwing (he didnt). The F87 has a visceral feel to it, and it FELT faster than the blackwing. All in all, the blackwing is a great car, and glad its made, but was just very underwhelmed by the engine. And that hurts the experience for me. I would also like to add, the sound deadening also kills the experience a bit. I couldnt hear the exhaust or engine at all. And when I did it was a very weird farty sound when you left off the gas. I thought the F87 sounded better. For the record, I would not take the G87 over the blackwing. I chose to get my model S plaid over the G87, that thing is extremely numb and boring.

 

[BimmerFan]

I think the ct5v would be worth the upgrade. I would love to try the difference. Was my test drive too short or does anyone else share the same sentiment?

Absolutely, if you can find one to drive, try the CT5. You may not like it either, but it's worth a shot. Was your test drive too short? I don't know, how long was it?

As other have noted, you are comparing light nimble cars like the Cayman and Miata to a large, heavy American car. There's a different design philosophy underpinning all of these things, and it may just not be for you.

I test drove a CT5 and honestly was not impressed. It was a used car that smelled, on really horrible and unfamiliar roads, and I had just gotten out of a early morning 3.5 hour drive in my M4 and was probably not in the best frame of mind. Despite that, I kept reading reviews and asking questions on forums like this, and eventually bought one (new) and have not regretted it since. It's not perfect, it has flaws and perhaps too much "character" in some regards and the wife thinks it looks like an old man's car, but it's everything I've ever wanted in a car, all rolled-up into one.

 

[BimmerFan]

I'm really only comparing it to the F87 because quite frankly theres not many direct competitors. Its the new and old m2, m3, 4 blackwing, integra type S kind of, in that 55-70k range sports car/sedan with a manual.

I've posted elsewhere on this forum that I don't expect you to find, the following observations:

- I've owned an F87 M2 (six speed). Really cute little car, it was absolutely miserable to drive anywhere on normal streets, it had the M performance exhaust which was hideous and droned and I couldn't stand it for more than 20 minutes. Except on the track, where it just sings... and the car wasn't *that* great on track, it understeers more than it should and is a bit underpowered but even with that, has trouble putting down the power. And that hideous BMW shifter. And CDV. And it actually reduced power on upshifts for a second (to work in conjunction with the CDV, I presume) which annoyed me. And the doors are stupid, the interior is low rent and the road noise is ridiculous. Nice seats though.

- I test drove an Integra Type S a couple of weeks ago, it's nice, it's very competent, I don't like four cylinders, the ride was too harsh and the seats too hard.

I'm an old guy, a "senior citizen" as some might say, so comfort may be more important to me than you, Jeff. That's all subjective.

Saturday I picked up my new Toyota Supra, which is a slightly improved and much better looking Z4. 6-speed, natch. It's nice. I like it.

 

[jeffcole]

I've posted elsewhere on this forum that I don't expect you to find, the following observations:

- I've owned an F87 M2 (six speed). Really cute little car, it was absolutely miserable to drive anywhere on normal streets, it had the M performance exhaust which was hideous and droned and I couldn't stand it for more than 20 minutes. Except on the track, where it just sings... and the car wasn't *that* great on track, it understeers more than it should and is a bit underpowered but even with that, has trouble putting down the power. And that hideous BMW shifter. And CDV. And it actually reduced power on upshifts for a second (to work in conjunction with the CDV, I presume) which annoyed me. And the doors are stupid, the interior is low rent and the road noise is ridiculous. Nice seats though.

Saturday I picked up my new Toyota Supra, which is a slightly improved and much better looking Z4. 6-speed, natch. It's nice. I like it.

I am surprised you bought the Supra after not enjoying the M2. Not sure that makes a lot of sense to me as it is an extremely similar car. I hated the windshield in that car, I couldnt get over how small it was. And the suspension is the same, with a slightly better bmw shifter.

Onto the M2, suspension isnt a huge factor to me. I'm used to driving in rough suspension in sports cars. I personally love the "low rent" interior. More basic the better for me. I think it might be the best looking car on the road. I also owned an OG M2 so I know what its like.

 

[Finally-a-V]

I bought a 4BW new while I waited for my 5BW. It's a really nice driver. Handles well in the twistes, around town and on the track. Just a fun car to drive. BUT, I always felt it was under powered for 472 HP. I thought it would have been quicker. I often wondered if it was just my car?

 

[1Evil55]

I have both, a 4 and 5. The power in the 4 comes with higher RPMs, turbo's. Stay above 3k and power is always there. Still not feeling it, move to the 5. Similar in size to the plaid but a completely different animal with a real soul. Also as has been mentioned already, we have sponsors here that can easily turn the power up if you'd like.

 

[Super Saloon]

You have to be honest with yourself and how important the engine is as part of the overall experience. At the end of the day if you don’t enjoy the car then obviously don’t buy it.

Like me, you seem to value the overall experience rather than any one component of the car. Case in point your Miata, which has a pretty lame engine, is one of your favorite. I say this as an ND2 owner that also finds the Miata one of the most enjoyable cars I’ve ever driven. I’ve had many fun cars, Fiesta ST, Focus RS, CLA 45 AMG, ND2 Miata and a 4 BW. The Miata and BW are easily my favorite of the bunch. Most of the time you can’t have the pedal to the floor driving around town, especially in an M2 or Blackwing, so think about how enjoyable it is while not breaking the law. The AMG I had was boring as hell driving normal. The Miata and BW are both fun to drive regardless of how fast I’m going, and a lot of that has to do with steering feel, braking feel, clutch, shifter, etc. All that said, my BW engine has never left me wanting more. With the exhaust at its loudest setting I find it plenty loud and I think it sounds great, though sound is very subjective. I had my BW going way faster than I should have been the other day and it had plenty of legs left and it did not take long to get me to speeds that could have my license taken away for a long time. The 4 BW is also lighter than the current gen M2 as I understand it. I’ve not driven a manual current gen M2, but I’ve heard from numerous reviews the manual transmission feels like an afterthought.

I’m also not sure where you are located and what tires are on the car, but it’s pretty easy for my 4 BW to overpower the winter tires during spirited driving which will kick on the traction control which cuts power. If you love everything else about the car, maybe you should drive another one. Hopefully this isn’t the case, but if it’s at a dealer who know what octane gas they put in it.

 

[jeffcole]

You have to be honest with yourself and how important the engine is as part of the overall experience. At the end of the day if you don’t enjoy the car then obviously don’t buy it.

Like me, you seem to value the overall experience rather than any one component of the car. Case in point your Miata, which has a pretty lame engine, is one of your favorite. I say this as an ND2 owner that also finds the Miata one of the most enjoyable cars I’ve ever driven. I’ve had many fun cars, Fiesta ST, Focus RS, CLA 45 AMG, ND2 Miata and a 4 BW. The Miata and BW are easily my favorite of the bunch. Most of the time you can’t have the pedal to the floor driving around town, especially in an M2 or Blackwing, so think about how enjoyable it is while not breaking the law. The AMG I had was boring as hell driving normal. The Miata and BW are both fun to drive regardless of how fast I’m going, and a lot of that has to do with steering feel, braking feel, clutch, shifter, etc. All that said, my BW engine has never left me wanting more. With the exhaust at its loudest setting I find it plenty loud and I think it sounds great, though sound is very subjective. I had my BW going way faster than I should have been the other day and it had plenty of legs left and it did not take long to get me to speeds that could have my license taken away for a long time. The 4 BW is also lighter than the current gen M2 as I understand it. I’ve not driven a manual current gen M2, but I’ve heard from numerous reviews the manual transmission feels like an afterthought.

I’m also not sure where you are located and what tires are on the car, but it’s pretty easy for my 4 BW to overpower the winter tires during spirited driving which will kick on the traction control which cuts power. If you love everything else about the car, maybe you should drive another one. Hopefully this isn’t the case, but if it’s at a dealer who know what octane gas they put in it.

I appreciate this response and something I was looking for. I do want to give it another try. It's surprising to me to hear you say its still fun driving around town not breaking the law. I trust that coming from a ND owner. I live in Florida, no winter tires needed