CT5-V 5BW v. 4BW

[565565]

You’ve always extolled the merits of your 4 compared to the 5, however your 4 is gone and the 5 remains.

Also given the biblical depreciation on the 4 given GMs own discounts and dealer discounts, if you buy a 4 and then get rid of it later, it’s actually the much more expensive car to own compared to the 5. There is a saying in saltwater fishing (and probably most hobbies) “Buy once cry once.” Just go for the thing you want first and that actually saves you money in the long term.

 

[565565]

That said, for the right price, I'd take a 4BW for a track toy and around town weekend/daily beater to replace my recently bought '24 Corolla GR (really fun car too in it's own right!). Waiting for the sub $60k purchase price of a decent option new 4BW.

On that front, if you can swing the upfront cost of a 5BW, it will absolutely hold long-term value much better than 4BW, especially the six-speeds. It's just a fact due to last of breed and unique aspect of a supercharged V8 strapped to a six-speed. So, long-term ownership cost could arguably be cheaper with a 5BW.

Oh, I didn’t read your post before replying but yeah I agree with that exact sentiment about cheaper ownership if you ever sell it.

I’m also interested in how you like the GR Corolla. I had one on order for like a year and when one finally came, I test drove it but ultimately passed in it. It was a core with all 3 packages. It was honestly just too small for what I needed (got one 1.5 year old and working on getting #2). Also it just didn’t drive well enough to justify being a fun only car. Steering didn’t seem to have a lot of feel and the suspension didn’t have a lot of sophistication. But that was just from initial impressions. How is it like to own?

 

[Tall Steve]

You’ve always extolled the merits of your 4 compared to the 5, however your 4 is gone and the 5 remains.

Also given the biblical depreciation on the 4 given GMs own discounts and dealer discounts, if you buy a 4 and then get rid of it later, it’s actually the much more expensive car to own compared to the 5. There is a saying in saltwater fishing (and probably most hobbies) “Buy once cry once.” Just go for the thing you want first and that actually saves you money in the long term.

I loved my 4BW and only traded it because I could not afford to purchase my wife's new Escalade without something going so I chose the 4BW.... I like my 5BW and its a collector series so i'm hoping to keep that for a very long time....

I will probably get another 4BW in 2025.........

As it's been stated, the 4 is a scalpel and the 5 is a sledgehammer, the cars are not the same but both are fun to drive, and like fat girls the 4 is better!

 

[dinkman]

Both cars are nutty expensive - over twice as much as any prior new car -

thats one valid pov. here's another: for a car that is often compared with/against the m3, i bought my first new m3 in '08 when the e90 came out. the msrp was $69,900... that's $99,900 in today's money, compared to the '24 i have deposit on of $65k and thats before dealer incentive discount and 0.9% apr 36 month financing (which is practically paying you to take out a loan in this market where bonds/cds are averaging 5%).

to me the 4bw is one hell of a deal

 

[quikag]

Not to go too far on a tangent, but the '24 Corolla GR Premium is a lot of fun for a weekend/evening toy car. I have a 2 year old boy and 5 year old boy and they fit in the back okay and I have enough room for wife and me in the front (I'm 6'1") to be comfy.

Only 200 miles on it, but the suspension is glued to the ground, great grip, strong smooth power from the 300hp triple, shifter feels great if a touch notchy (seemed better yesterday when I drove it around, seems better warmed up and running it a bit harder). Interior is fine but a bit austere (it is a Corolla after all), exterior a bulldog hatchback, I like it.

I'm a car nut, so I have a C6 ZR1 and my 5 BW parked next to a '22 Subaru BRZ and now this '24 GR. Then, I have a '23 Duramax 3.0 work truck that is so smooth and nice. To top it off, wife drives a '23 Model Y. Also, supposed to get my Extreme off-road '24 Hummer Edition 1 with bronze beadlocks, etc. in the next week or so as it's been on the train from Hamtramck since 11/7 and is supposed to arrive at dealer between 11/27 and 11/30.

So, I don't discriminate on cars. If they are interesting to me, I'm willing to try them out. I see the pros and cons of all cars, but take their respective attributes collectively and if I derive driving enjoyment and my friends/family like riding/driving them too, then I'm game.

The cooling issue is the diff on track and an aftermarket solution is imminent. Any car (especially one that cost $40k) will have strengths and weaknesses. I think Toyota did a great job on the GR and I'm glad they are back to making some fun cars. They set each GR up on its own individual jig and dial in the suspension. Also a ton of additional welds, braces, and structural adhesive goes into the car over a regular Corolla. 3 cylinder is motorsports derived and they've gone past 600hp now with stock internals which is insane for a 1.6 liter 3 cylinder. It's turning out to be an updated version of a .5 2JZ-GTE type engine. So, that's fun too.

I may not own it forever, but I love driving it for now.

 

[rubberduck]

and like fat girls the 4 is better!

Right, and hot girls like fat guys.

 

[minn19]

If you only look at the numbers but in reality one will ask less of you to produce fast lap times, take both on the same track and the 5 equipped with its more powerful engine, bigger brakes and larger wheels/tires will be a more relaxed experience to achieve laps 1-2 seconds faster than the 4. In the 4 you will need to be closer to the 9-10/10 driving to even think of following the 5, while in the 5 you'll be driving 7-8/10 and stomping the 4 with ease.

Two different experiences, I am happy there is such big of a difference in there pricing, in my specs it's basically 41k cad savings if I don't get my 5 allocation and run a 4 next season.

Tracking is hard to gauge as there are too many variables, driver talent, track layout etc etc. The 5 needs the bigger brakes and tires to deal with the extra heft, larger dimensions. Most people cant drive anywhere near 9/10s so I suspect it’s a drivers race most of the time at your average HPDE. The power of the 5 can swing both ways, can obviously be a huge benefit or bite faster depending on the driver. I know from experience.

But yes, agreed, if both drivers are equal (advanced) the 5 will obviously pull away every time on track.

 

[Tall Steve]

Right, and hot girls like fat guys.

View attachment 22874

YEP, but I'm bringing sexy back as I've lost 45 lbs with 15 more to go...I think 6'7" and 225 will be just about right.......

 

[Seth]

If they were the same price I don't think anyone would ever pick a 4 over the 5. For me, 4 it was because the 5 is out of my price range. 5 is definitely the superior car.

Don’t get me wrong I think the 5 is a badass machine but I’ve gotta disagree here. I never desired the 5 the same way I did the 4, and trust me there are MANY cars out of my price range that I’ve given way too much thought to. The 5 is not one of them.

I prefer the size and styling of the 4. Would I like more power? Sure. But I definitely don’t want a bigger car! Even the 4 is pushing it for me, size wise.

Plus I drive a LOT and the 4 gets about as low of mileage as I can stomach (maybe that goes back to not having unlimited $$, lol)

 

[MookdocOE]

thats one valid pov. here's another: for a car that is often compared with/against the m3, i bought my first new m3 in '08 when the e90 came out. the msrp was $69,900... that's $99,900 in today's money, compared to the '24 i have deposit on of $65k and thats before dealer incentive discount and 0.9% apr 36 month financing (which is practically paying you to take out a loan in this market where bonds/cds are averaging 5%).

to me the 4bw is one hell of a deal

It really is and thanks for buying the BMW lol how did that depreciating asset treat ya?

 

[Badillac]

5BW is a great cruiser, it is a very well rounded performance sedan, which makes it very special. You just have to set proper expectations for those who have never owned a vehicle with such high performance limits. Some folks may expect a more visceral experience when looking at the spec sheet. On the street, cruising in the 5BW is like jogging for an Olympic sprinter. So simple and easy to do, which is great that you know you have this capability at your disposal but can be a bit boring or frustrating for enthusiast looking for more. I have heard the same from folks that purchased the new C8 Stingray. Almost too refined and leaves them wanting more. Z06 is the answer there but still needs a manual transmission.

I've NEVER felt bored in my BW5, nor have I heard other 5 owners having that complaint. True, the car is very capable & sometimes effortless at unleashing it's power, but it doesn't rob you of having visceral experience- the car has soul! Tons of it! That's excactly what the "enthusiast" say. If anyone is expecting a raw, unrefined driving experience from the 5, they're just crazy- it's still a Cadillac afterall!

 

[dinkman]

It really is and thanks for buying the BMW lol how did that depreciating asset treat ya?

i owned it for 8 years and traded it in for a 911 TT down the road. its the longest i've ever owned any car in my life it was that good so depreciation wasnt even a thought

 

[seattlecubes]

@DAC17

TLDR:
The CT5 BW is like the actor wrestler The Rock. Huge personality. Definitely didn't skip the gym. Laid back, but if you piss him off he's going to pick you up by your neck and throw you through a window. He's powerful, outspoken, and brash. I'll go so far to call this, "American style." It’s a 12lb hammer.

The CT4BW is like actor and Martial Artist Jason Statham. Sits in the corner...Observing. Blending in. Soft spoken but confident. He doesn't smile. Start sh*t with him and he'll shock you with his speed and serve up so many quick jabs to strategic places on your body you'd think he had 8 hands. He's precise and quick. Like the man, the CT4 is "Euro style.” It’s like a sharp shooter or a sniper.

Both of these guys will mess you up in a fight and do it in different ways. So...what is your preferred brawling style?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*cracks knuckles*. Bear with me here...

I've wanted to reply but I've been worried about coming off the wrong way. It's a spicy topic that really shouldn't even BE a topic in the first place.

First of all...GM got it ALL wrong. Launching these cars together on the same press junket should almost be considered a criminal offense. The CT5 BW is a brilliant car. The CT4BW is ALSO a brilliant car that will probably forever (and very undeservedly) live in the shadow of the CT5. Not because of the looks. Not because of the chassis...but because they were released on the same day and not really priced that far apart at launch. "Comparison is a thief of joy" and this is a classic example of that. The gap has grown to about $30K between them which makes a bit more more sense (and is probably what the market will bear), but the "damage" is done.

More so, in my experience and observations, very few people compare the BMW M3 and the M5 or the Mercedes C63 AMG and the E63 AMG (and they have the same engine!!). Those cars are allowed to be awesome in their own right and the CT4 and CT5 should be no different...there's place for both of them and if you chose a CT4 this is NOT settling. No one SETTLES on a $70,000 dollar car I don't think..? Subway instead of McDonalds...? For sure...especially on a road trip where there are 30 miles between them...that's a reasonable "settle." But both of these cars are awesome and have their own style.

Now...I'm about 70 cars in to my personal car journey, (and I am currently pulling off a poor man's Jay Leno act with the current fleet) so I have some opinions on cars. They're the reason I work. They make terrible investments. And they make me smile. The list of cars I've owned (and own) are very broad in range and if you saw it, you'd say I had a type. I have also had some GM's greatest hits (CTS-V, GTO, G8 GXP, etc...) so I don't feel like I'm speaking completely out of turn.

The easiest way to "compare" these cars is an analogy I've used before:

The CT5 BW is like the actor wrestler The Rock. Huge personality. Definitely didn't skip the gym. Laid back, but if you piss him off he's going to pick you up by your neck and throw you through a window. He's powerful and brash. I'll go so far to call this, "American style.” It’s a 12lb hammer.

The CT4BW is like actor and Martial Artist Jason Statham. Sits in the corner...Observing. Blending in. Soft spoken but confident. He doesn't smile. Start sh*t with him and he'll shock you with his speed and serve up so many quick jabs to strategic places on your body you'd think he had 8 hands. He's precise and quick. This car is very "Euro style" in personality. It’s a sharp shooter or a sniper.

Both of these guys will mess you up in a fight and do it in different ways.

I have a CT4 BW and it reminds me a bit of another car I own and adore - a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. That car is light, quick, and has lazer sharp turn in. The CT4 is like that...almost like a ballerina. The turn in is SHARP, plenty of power, and a compact size but the CT4 feels like it has been to the world's best Finishing School. Everything has a bit of..."butter" or "cream" to it. I'm not referring to the interior either..the chassis tuning is pretty much perfect. The car is EXTREMELY balanced and has a perfect split personality. Date night? Set it to "Tour" and it coddles you. Want to raise a little hell? Hit "V mode" and slide all the sliders in the menu to "MAX."

My time with a CT5 is limited to Spring Mountain but it reminded me a lot of a previous car I had - G8 GXP M6. It had some weight, and power behind it. The CT5 was certainly a bit nicer inside than the G8 was, but the general character seemed the same. Handling was fine but it wasn't light on its feet and the V8 was front and center on your plate like a Tomahawk Steak at a fancy restaurant. Can you finish it all...? Probably not. But wow... And you know what...? It needs the V8 to justify the price. The interiors (save for the space especially in back) are pretty much the same in both cars. The seats, the basic dash design, the gauge and infotainment graphics etc. There's some differences, but in general, Aunt Mary probably won't notice (unless you're 6'2" and make her sit in back behind you). She'd just think they were both nice cars. They even look a lot a like on the outside. We can tell them apart but no one else seems to be able to (If I had a dollar for every "damn that has the 700HP Hemi Turbo V8 in it" I've heard I could probably buy a Ct5 free and clear). And on that same topic, the average person ALSO can't tell the difference from basic CT4/CT5s...V or not to the BW.

I chose the "4" not as a consolation but because:
-I prefer the looks (the C-pillar of the 5 really puzzles me) and the size.

-It's plenty fast (especially on the move or from a roll) - MUCH faster than all the bench racing on forums and Magazines are able to convey. The engine note is not as charismatic as a V8 but it's not dull at all, and to me, I think it will be a lot easier (and cheaper depending on how far I decide to take it) to add power to a CT4 than it will be to take weight out of a CT5.

-Lastly, I also think the price is a lot more palatable for what it is. 110K for a car my aunt or anyone else can't tell apart from the "small" one, that has hard plastic in the interior and didn't come over to my dealer on a boat with a family crest or some kind of horse or bull or lady for the hood ornament is kind of hard for me to swallow.

When they update the CT5BW interior in 2025...well...we might need to talk then. I'm sure the price will jump again though...

*steps off soapbox*
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I also chose this car over the BMW M3, Lexus IS500, Kia Stinger, Camaro ZL-1, and Dodge Charger Scat Pack/Hellcat, if that gives you an idea of what else I cross shopped.

I hope this helps you (and anyone else that finds themselves here in the future) - Sorry it was so long

 

[DAC17]

Thanks for all the thoughts, guys. I appreciate your all spending the time to reply. I think the back seat space is the governing factor for me and, together with the 4's likely depreciation curve (even though undeserved), I'll order a 5.

 

[so 650]

TLDR:
The CT5 BW is like the actor wrestler The Rock. Huge personality. Definitely didn't skip the gym. Laid back, but if you piss him off he's going to pick you up by your neck and throw you through a window. He's powerful, outspoken, and brash. I'll go so far to call this, "American style." It’s a 12lb hammer.

The CT4BW is like actor and Martial Artist Jason Statham. Sits in the corner...Observing. Blending in. Soft spoken but confident. He doesn't smile. Start sh*t with him and he'll shock you with his speed and serve up so many quick jabs to strategic places on your body you'd think he had 8 hands. He's precise and quick. Like the man, the CT4 is "Euro style.” It’s like a sharp shooter or a sniper.

This (and the rest) is some good shit, seattlecubes in Dallas. Particularly the point about comparison being unnecessary. Enjoy the one you can get, or make like Tall Steve and get 'em both.

 

[rubberduck]

For someone like me that doesn’t buy and sell cars very often the 5BW was a rare opportunity and I plan to keep it for a long time. There was nothing complex about my decision, 1 + 1 = V8 MT. Actually it wasn’t even a decision, it was straight into action.

I grew up in a time when all American cars had V8s and the nostalgia factor is definitely there. I once owned a 69 Corvette with a 427 tri-power, 4spd Muncie close ratio. That was the real deal sledge hammer.

 

[MookdocOE]

Tall Steve say's it best!

CT4 BW = Scalpel
CT5 BW = Sledge Hammer

He's owned both and there's not much more to elaborate or expunge on....................

 

[rubberduck]

Tall Steve say's it best!

CT4 BW = Scalpel
CT5 BW = Sledge Hammer

He's owned both and there's not much more to elaborate or expunge on....................

Not sure how he would know since his sledge hammer remains in the garage with the rest of his tools.

 

[jbawden]

I've been a lifelong gearhead and so for my tastes and interests the 5BW is my dream car. In the context of where the personal transportation is headed, it further cemented my resolve to get one. To argue the negligible dimensional and performance differences between the 4 and 5 would completely misrepresent what makes the 5 w/M6 the ultimate vehicle to me.

Everyone expects a C8 Z06 or GT3 RS to offer a certain driving experience, but no one expects a big sedan to have this drivetrain configuration, chassis dynamics, and intoxicating experience behind the wheel. It's incredible that this car even exists. If they made the 5 in a wagon configuration, it would be the most incredibly appealing car I could ever create in my dreams. Not because Costco runs would be more fun, but because a collection of nut jobs took a niche super sedan and went all YOLO on it. !Viva 5 Blackwing!

 

[99sport]

Thanks for all the thoughts, guys. I appreciate your all spending the time to reply. I think the back seat space is the governing factor for me and, together with the 4's likely depreciation curve (even though undeserved), I'll order a 5.

This is a personal question - my opinion isn't right for everyone. What else do you own or have you owned in the past? Does your garage have a 60s muscle car with a 4 speed or a Lotus Elise in it? (The manual trans experience in the 5 is a lot more like the former than the latter).

The only reason I'm sharing my thoughts is that you specifically are looking for a manual trans experience with the Blackwing. To cut to the chase, I own a 5 Blackwing, but think the 4 is a better manual trans experience.

As background, I currently own 9 cars with manual transmissions; I've never bought a car without a manual transmission; I've daily driven manual trans cars since high school (30 years), including a 66 Mustang with a 4 speed in stop and go traffic in downtown Los Angeles on the freeway (very heavy clutch pedal). I never, ever would have considered a blackwing (or any other car) with an auto. In short, I am a manual trans snob. Having said all of that, I think the 5 BW is a better car with the auto. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the clutch / shifter / trans in the 5 - they are executed perfectly. But rowing the gear box in the 5 does not bring me joy the way it does in my other cars. And the auto is faster and more "effortless" - I think it is a better match for the engine.

I have an S2000 and 90% of the pleasure of that car is working the clutch and shifter and winding the motor out to 9,000 RPM. Because it only has 240 horsepower, you can go to a canyon road and wind out second gear on every straight before shifting to 3rd and then heel and toe downshift to second for every corner. I also have a 1930 model A Ford, and the pleasure in driving that car is double clutching every downshift because the trans doesn't have any syncros. I also have a couple 90s Civics and the clutch is so light, and the shifter so fluid that it's completely effortless to heel and toe for right hand turns in city traffic - and again the power is low so you can wind out all the gears and heel and to every downshift and not go to prison. In all of those cars the shifting is natural and effortless (after 30 years even the double clutch in the A is subconscious)

The 5, while a magnificent piece of engineering, just doesn't make me want to shift - ever. The clutch pedal force is totally manageable, but it isn't what anyone would describe as effortless. And, there really is no need to shift on a twisty road. Leave it in 3rd (which is good for 115 mph) and it will be faster than anything you'll ever encounter. The fraction of a second faster the car would be if you downshifted to second on every corner adds no pleasure and you'll pay for it with a sore leg the next day. In fact, the car will pull away from a stop in 3rd gear more easily than any of the other cars listed above will do in 1st. There really is no reason to shift - it's completely optional.

As for the 4 vs 5 - the advantages I see of the 5 are the engine sound and the larger back seats. I think the engine sound of the 5 is worth 30 grand, but excepting the back seats, I prefer pretty much everything else about the 4. The biggest downside of the 5 in my opinion is the added power. It's not usable on the street - you have to track that car to take advantage of the power. To use full throttle in the 5 you need warm tires, a warm, perfectly smooth, and empty road. Even then, you can't use full throttle for more than 2 or 3 seconds. So while the sound of the 5 is among the best sounding engines / exhausts of all time (boy, does that sound bring me pleasure), you can't hear it at full throttle for more than a couple of seconds. The 4, in contrast, has less power so you can actually row the gears and use full throttle in a lot more situations on the street. Also, something about the 4 makes heel and toeing subconscious, while I never do it on the 5. (I wonder if the trans tunnel isn't wider on the 5 and encroaches on the pedal box.)

As a final aside, I did spring mountain twice - once in a 4 and once in a 5. With the 4, the instructor asked why I was on the throttle under braking at the end of the straight - I said I didn't know as I never left foot brake. I reviewed the PDR footage, and I heel and toed EVERY SINGLE downshift on the 4, but I had no I idea I had done it even once - it was completely subconscious and effortless. Even at 1100 miles on the 5, I still struggle to heel and toe in it - not sure why. I, personally, prefer the MT experience in the 4 over the 5. If only they would put a NA V8 (for the sound) in the 4 I'd be the first in line with a deposit.

Note that there is a big price difference for the 5 vs the 4. Could you keep your current 5 non BW for daily use and use the $50K it would probably cost you to upgrade to the 5 BW to buy a Miata, GR86, Lotus Elise, used Boxter, etc for fun weekend use and keep a car you are otherwise happy with?