CT4BW vs. BMW M2 (F87, 2016-2018)

[maxm50]

I got some really great input on my last thread asking for comparisons between a 991.1 Carrera S and the 4BW, so I figured I'd post another thread here asking for input on my other possible choice: an F87 BMW M2 (2016-2018, otherwise known as the "OG" M2).

I'm upgrading from a 2004 BMW 330i ZHP. Fantastic car, but I want more power. I have always fawned over the looks of the F87 M2. But after test driving a CT4BW, the blackwing became my #1 choice. But I'm picky and don't want a sunroof and would ideally like Argent Silver, so I've spec'd a new build as such. But, the reality of spending $69k (more like $79k after taxes) is starting to sink in on me. I can find 2018 BMW M2's all day for $35-40k, quite literally half the price. So, I am reconsidering...

The 2- vs 4-door thing is not a huge stumbling block for me. I carry passengers very rarely, and the back seat in the M2 is actually pretty darn similar to the back seat in the Blackwing, just a touch smaller. For the infrequent times I carry more than one passenger, it would be OK. And I actually do like the improved side visibility of the 2-door M2 because the B pillar is so much further back.

Reliability / repairs is not a huge blocker for me either. I do my own work, have a set of quickjacks, and for anything I can't do I have an incredible independent BMW shop near me.

Things that DO concern me about the M2 are road noise and comfort. I would spend some money and sweat addressing both of these via new suspension and some interior soundproofing. Though I know the M2 would never be as quiet or comfortable as the 4BW.

I just installed an Autosolutions shifter into my current BMW and it upgraded the typical BMW sloppy shift feel tremendously. I would do the same to the M2. It would be closer, but not as good, as the 4BW.

So, I'm curious to hear from those who have owned or had a lot of time in both of these: What are your thoughts on them in terms of driving experience? I've been "wowed" by my test drives in both the F87 and the 4BW, but I haven't really LIVED with either one for more than 30min.

(My other option is convincing myself to become less picky and just wait for a used 4BW that checks most of my boxes, and be OK with a sunroof. That would be between the two options cost-wise, somewhere in the $50-60k range).

 

[ngoni]

Paging Dr. @Roadhawk who has both of those cars (ZHP and 4BW)...

 

[maxm50]

Paging Dr. @Roadhawk who has both of those cars (ZHP and 4BW)...

woah, I knew that Roadhawk and I both have ZHPs, but he has/had an F87 M2 also??! If so, what luck!

 

[Roadhawk]

I do indeed (still) own a 2004 BMW ZHP and of course a 2024 CT 3 V BW....both are fantastic (driving) cars and I love them both. The ZHP is plenty quick - though not fast per se (compared to "fast" cars of today) but boy is it still a hoot to drive. I just love revving it out....that inline 6 sounds and performs great. In many ways its lighter weight and tossability make it more "fun" to drive then the Caddy.

I suspect the M2 might push similar buttons (but with more oomph and tail happy antics). But the BW is also fun to drive and supremely competent. Its fast and feels light on its feet when pushing it. Its better in really every way vs the ZHP. I think the BW is a "better" car then the M2 and certainly is a more composed daily and would be easier to live with. But I long considered the M2 as my "next" car and I get it. You should get the car that you think will push your buttons best. Neither is a bad choice.

 

[BimmerFan]

OK, so first of all, the E46 is probably the best 3 series chassis that BMW ever did, and very possibly the best one that they ever did, period (the E39 M5 still holds a special place in my heart). I've owned them all.

I had a 2018 OG M2, correctly equipped with the manual and the shifter in that is much better than the old sloppy E46, so no worries there. The CDV is horrendous, so you should make plans to remove that, fer sure.

I initially drove the M2 at the BMW Performance Center in both SC and CA, and it was a great little pocket rocket on their tracks. I bought one shortly thereafter, after a brief test drive. My bad. On the drive home, I started to hate it. The stupid car had the stupid BMW Performance Exhaust option, and it was absolutely horrible, just a gawd-awful drone at speed and just too loud. Now, on the track or hooning it around town with the RPMs over 5K, yeah, it was glorious. Otherwise, pure garbage.

The road noise is abysmal. I followed a thread on a web forum and bought all of the missing sound insulation parts (they removed it for "weight savings", all of about 2 lbs.) as well as some additional dynamat, and it was still annoyingly loud. No wind noise to speak of, just tire/road noise. On a long trip, I wore earplugs. Which didn't matter much because my back hurt so much I couldn't feel the ear pain. Great seats, just a brutal suspension. The thing would hop over bad pavement and on anything other than glass-smooth roads, it was just lousy. I know people love that car and Chris Harris and Jeremy Clarkson think that it's great, but it's not. And on the track it really does push quite a bit, partly due to the suspension tuning and partly due (I presume) to the staggered tires. I don't like that either.

I have a Supra that I take to the track, and a lot of it is based on the M2 front suspension, and it rides much better, handles better and is more neutral. BMW knows how to do it, but the M2 was kind of a half-assed compromise that just doesn't work, IMHO.

Other issues with the M2 is a low-rent interior (compared to other BMWs), barely useable rear seats and the B58 instead of the "real M" engine, the S58 which they started to put in them later. It's a great engine, the B58, but it's not a real M car. It is also not possible to get a HUD in those cars, which I really missed.

 

[Roadhawk]

BimmerFan - like me constantly praising my ZHP (and GTI and prior Audi S4 Avant) we've heard this all before....but appro for the thread and a very nice summary as to why you're not an OG M2 fan....and it all makes sense.

I've always had a bit of buyers regret not getting a prior gen M2 (though its really the 1 M I really dig)....but your well reasoned observations on the M2 shortcomings make it easier for me to appreciate the BW and give me less regret for not purchasing an M2. I've still been recommending BMW 1 & 2 series (non M) cars to friends/relatives as worthy used car options...sized right certainly (at least in my book)...as close to an E46 BMW one can now get thats not unreasonably old...

 

[Roadhawk]

OK, so first of all, the E46 is probably the best 3 series chassis that BMW ever did, and very possibly the best one that they ever did, period

Just the other day I vowed to my wife never to sell the ZHP...and thats not the first time I've proclaimed this. To my somewhat surprise she agreed. She loves driving the car (her daily) but 2 years ago was the one saying she wanted a new car which in part spurred my research and interest in purchasing a BW (that she never drives).

Its also funny (and frustrating to me) that when she drives the BMW she shifts so early she often lugs the engine....contrary to the way it should be driven - revving it out to the max to get the full power. But she did originally learn to drive in a diesel Rabbit so its understandable...even with my constant coaching for her to rev it out more...

I never did remove the CDV and it doesn't bother me (just used to it i guess). I've considered adding a LSD and upgrading to a newer big brake kit as well as adding some stiffer sway bars and such....but in the end I'm so happy with it as is that I never bite the bullet on upgrades. I do keep up with the suspension but it is starting to feel a bit long in the tooth. Still its just such a pleasure to drive hard and is still quite rewarding and fun.

 

[maxm50]

Bimmerfan: Wow, thank you for this reply! That's a pretty scathing review of your M2. You probably didn't keep it long, I'm guessing? I've heard some grumbling about road noise in them but not as strong as yours - did your car by chance have runflats or the old Pilot Supersport tires? If I were to get an M2, I already know that I'd need to switch to 18" wheels and all-seasons in order to use it as my daily commuter... I like the look more with 18's anyway and I'm in love with the Continental DWS06 tires I have on my ZHP for "daily" duty. I would probably change the suspension, also. I've heard good reports about improved comfort by going to the M Performance Coilovers (KW v3 units), simply because the damping of the stock setup is total trash (overdamped and crashy). And I'd get in there and do the sound deadening work. So, an M2 would certainly be a bit of a project. There's definitely a lot of appeal of a 4BW being "done" as soon as it enters my garage.

Roadhawk: I've got a rule with any "old" car, which is: If it's rubber, replace it. If your ZHP is feeling a little long in the tooth, a few easy (and cheap) bushings will probably bring it back to like-new. I highly recommend replacing the steering guibo if you haven't before. Easy job. Last weekend I replaced my driveshaft guibo and center support bearing and that tightened up the car in a pleasantly surprising way. Also did the transmission bushings because they were exposed and a whopping $14 total for the pair. Gosh, I do love how easy this car is to work on. Thankfully all my suspension bushings were done recently by the PO - if yours have more than 60k miles on them, just replace them... especially the front lower control arm bushings.

 

[Roadhawk]

Roadhawk: I've got a rule with any "old" car, which is: If it's rubber, replace it. If your ZHP is feeling a little long in the tooth, a few easy (and cheap) bushings will probably bring it back to like-new. I highly recommend replacing the steering guibo if you haven't before. Easy job. Last weekend I replaced my driveshaft guibo and center support bearing and that tightened up the car in a pleasantly surprising way. Also did the transmission bushings because they were exposed and a whopping $14 total for the pair. Gosh, I do love how easy this car is to work on. Thankfully all my suspension bushings were done recently by the PO - if yours have more than 60k miles on them, just replace them... especially the front lower control arm bushings.

I had been keeping up with bushings & control arms and such but probably need to do so again. Its really not so bad though....just in comparison to some of the newer sport cars I've driven. I'll look into steering & driveshaft quibos...though have to admit I don't even know what that is. I've heard good things about the M/KW coilovers...will probably wait until I need to do it. I used to have a KW coilover setup on my Audi and it was very very nice...

 

[BimmerFan]

Bimmerfan: Wow, thank you for this reply! That's a pretty scathing review of your M2. You probably didn't keep it long, I'm guessing? I've heard some grumbling about road noise in them but not as strong as yours - did your car by chance have runflats or the old Pilot Supersport tires?

Well, I kept it a long time for me (18 months) but for most people, that's not very long I'm sure. By the time I had decided to get rid of it, we were in the pandemic so that it made it a bit more challenging. The first guy that bought it had the purchase delayed d/t lockdown issues with his state's DMV. Before that could get resolved, his wife got laid-off, so he backed out. The second guy delayed the purchase until he could get one of his properties sold (a Realtor) to get the commission to pay for it... but he was happy in the end.

M cars do not come with runflats. It had the wonderful PS4S tires, which do tend to be loud.

 

[G.Newt]

Other issues with the M2 is a low-rent interior (compared to other BMWs), barely useable rear seats and the B58 instead of the "real M" engine, the S58 which they started to put in them later. It's a great engine, the B58, but it's not a real M car. It is also not possible to get a HUD in those cars, which I really missed.

M2 never got the B58, it got an upgraded N55 until the M2C came out (S55), now the S58. And BMW has a long history of putting non-S engines in M cars. If it was only about the engine, our CT4 Blackwings would be DOA because the LF4 is just an adequate powerplant.

 

[BimmerFan]

M2 never got the B58, it got an upgraded N55 until the M2C came out (S55), now the S58. And BMW has a long history of putting non-S engines in M cars. If it was only about the engine, our CT4 Blackwings would be DOA because the LF4 is just an adequate powerplant.

@Newt is correct, my bad, my apologies.

FWIW, I was on track last weekend in my B58 powered Supra and I kinda drag-raced an M2C up the back straight of VIR... he had a faster entry speed than I did (modified suspension and track tires) but yet was unable to pull away much more than 1 additional car length at the end of the straight. So I'm not so sure really how much "better" the "S" engine is than the B.

 

[G.Newt]

@Newt is correct, my bad, my apologies.

FWIW, I was on track last weekend in my B58 powered Supra and I kinda drag-raced an M2C up the back straight of VIR... he had a faster entry speed than I did (modified suspension and track tires) but yet was unable to pull away much more than 1 additional car length at the end of the straight. So I'm not so sure really how much "better" the "S" engine is than the B.

Supra weighs 3330lbs, M2C probably 3500-ish. The power between the two is about 20-40whp, not a huge gap. So sounds about right given power to weight ratios, assuming both are untuned. Also comparing N55-based S55 with newer B-series modular engines. S55 has dual HPFP, better cooling, higher redline, etc. It's not just about power.